I must admit the schooner rig appeals to me as well, though when I
pushed Rob
he seemed to favour the easyrig (Harry) and after all it's his
baby and he
probably has more time sailing both rigs than all of us. What
happens to the
balance of the easy rig with two reefs, or if you are
running with the main
down in heavy air?
Would really appreciate a
detailed comparison of the two with a few numbers
thrown in (speed, cost,
ease of construction).
Another question about the poly-core, how do you do
butt joins? how do you
form compound shapes? Sorry if this makes me sound
like a Wally who knows
nothing but it's big project for
me.
Cheers
David
------ Original Message ------
Received: Tue,
17 Jan 2006 09:26:03 AM MST
From: "Robert"
<cateran1949@yahoo.co.uk>
To:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [harryproa] Re: sailing
Elementarry
For cruising I still prefer the schooner rig. Yes extra
sheets and
sheet loads but you can bring sails closer to deck as you don't
need
clearance for the forward part of the boom and you can couple the
sheets and use a small winch. Overall significantly lower c of e of
rig and therefore less capsizing moment for given sail area. Also for
shallow water sailing there is some directional control with just the
sails. Whether to go for a wingmast or a round mast with pocket luff,
I am ambivalent. Wing mast probably more efficient but I like
simplicity and reliability of pocket luff, Wharrams are pretty happy
with them (OK I know that is not necessarily an argument about how
well they sail but it is an argument over there reliability) I am
even
tempted to go for a Wharram type gaff rig only using a nicely
curved
carbon tube for the top spar. I like the idea of the unstayed
wishbone
boom
Down wind for cruising it has to be a kite. Lifting bows instead
od
depressing them. On a long downhill section put all other sails away
and relax unless you want to get that little bit more out of the kite
by figure of eight flying. No worries about leaping off the top of
the
wave and plowing into the back of the next one, stalling and
pitchpoling
as you haven't let go of the screecher in time and the
apparant wind has
doubled. With a kite your bows stay up and if you
do stall into the back
of the next wave the kite will pull you up
insead of over --- In
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, Mike Crawford
<jmichael@g...>
wrote:
>
>
> For going fast, I'm more a fan of
Rob's schooner rig than the
easyrig.
>
> This is
partially because there are no concerns about forestay
> tensions, and
fewer concerns about rig stiffness, and mostly
because it
>
provides for more sail area, with better foil shapes, and a lower
center
> of effort. When tacking downwind in light wind, two battened
foil
> shapes are going to generate more lift than a main and jib, and
when
> running the schooner could present quite a wing-on-wing
profile.
>
> The schooner rig will require more winch
work than an easyrig,
but
> only when lazy sailing. if you
want to be competitive, you'd need
all
> sorts of additional
strings on an easyrig anyway. I'd rather go
with a
> pair of
extra-tall mainsails for light wind, and reef them in
normal
>
wind, than to try to stiffen an easyrig with running stays and
attempt
> to fasten additional headsails.
>
> ---
>
> Speaking of rig stiffness, I do feel the need to weigh in
on the
> comments about Rare Bird's rig. Yes, it's pretty
flexible.
However, as
> the owner of a lightweight 27' cat,
which can only be righted by
another
> boat if capsized, I can
appreciate a rig that will allow some of
the
> gust energy to pass
by the boat. Going over on a beach cat or
> Elementarry is wet
and inconvenient. Going over on a 9+ meter boat
is
>
tremendously uncool.
>
> If you've got everything
right on the edge, with the windward
hull
> just skimming the
water, it takes *very* little extra gust energy
to
> suddenly whip
the boat over. The only solution is to be lightning
quick
>
with the mainsheet, but that's a tall order if you're going to be
doing
> it for more than ten minutes at a time. Flying a hull is great
fun, but
> any look at the Stiletto nationals will turn up some
boats that
didn't
> hold that fine balance in a gust. Even
the skippers of the
Reynolds 33
> lose it now and then.
>
> When cruising, going past this edge is entirely
unacceptable.
It's
> much better to have a flexible rig, with
the addition of perhaps an
> outleader kite, than to risk gust-induced
capsize (fool-induced
capsize,
> of course, is
rig-independent).
>
> When racing, though, there's
still something to be said about a
boat
> that can handle the
gusts. Let's say you can fly a hull with 40 sq
m of
> canvas
with a stayed rig, and 50 to 60 sq m of canvas with a more
> flexible
rig. The flexible rig provides two advantages. First, in
a
> gust, the flexible rig will either allow you to keep sailing
without
> adjustments, or give you lots of time to adjust, while
the stayed
rig
> will require quick reflexes in order to avoid a
capsize. Second,
those
> extra 10 to 20 sq m of canvas
will come into play nicely in the
lulls,
> do so automatically,
while the stayed rig will need to either
unreef or
> hoist an
extra sail to keep up.
>
> Supporters of a stayed rig
will point out that the extra canvas
will
> create extra drag, so
in theory the stiffer rig will beat the
flexible
> rig in some
conditions. This is true. But a capsized boat
eliminates
> all rig advantages. Besides, we don't all sail in exactly 15
knots
of
> trade winds, and changing wind conditions will likely
favor the
extra
> sail area and self-adjusting nature of the
flexible rig.
>
> ---
>
> The one change
I would make would be to go with an unstayed
wishbone
> rig like
they have on the Wyliecats.
>
>
http://www.wyliecat.com/info/wishbone_rig.html>
> One adjustment line automatically handles sail shape,
leech
tension,
> and mast bend, with very little stress on the
boom. Sail shaping
is
> very quickly done, the boom creates
its own lazy jack pocket when
taking
> the sails down, and a
reduction in heeling moment can be achieved
either
> by reefing,
flattening, or both, allowing for some quick sail
> adjustments for a
minimal amount of time and effort.
>
> However, I've
never sailed a Wyliecat, so I can't speak from
> experience. I
just love the idea of it.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
> dominiquebovey wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
>
> > Boats as light and canvassed as HP's mostly sail
"close-hauled"
due to
> > their high speed, so they need a rather
flat sail profile. But to
> > start you need a hollow profile, so the
sail should be tunable
quickly.
> >
> > I would see a
8.5m proa (maximum of M2 class) for 3 crew (minimum
> > number for
racing on Lake Geneva), with easyrig, around 30-40m2
sail.
> > I
am persuaded the easyrig is OK for racing, provided it is stiff.
>
>
> > One of the crew would be adjusting the sail permanently
(making it
> > hollower in the lulls, flattening it when speed
increases).
Another
> > crew would be running up/down the tramp
to keep the LW hull just
above
> > the water, and the 3rd one
steering.
> > And all crew could be going on trapezes when needed. So
you need
> > running sidestays which can be attached to several
selectable
points
> > on the WW hull or on the beams.
>
> To go on trapeze, you unhook them off the boat, and hook them on
your
> > trapeze pants/harness whatever-the-word-is.
> >
Naturally the rig must be self supported without the runners, for
easy
> > cruising.
> >
> > I know it is quite a
new boat, something between Harrigami and EL,
> > with more
displacement. The Elementarry lw "sinks" about 1cm for
15kg,
> >
for the 8.5m the figure should be 20-25kg, so a less fine lw hull.
>
> The Elementarry is unfortunately a little too light for 3 racing
crew
> > I am afraid, as we discussed last year.
>
>
> > Regards
> > Dom
> >
> >
>
> --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rudolf vd Brug"
<rpvdb@f...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
>
> >
> > > Possibly the difference in sheeting in between you
and the
Tornado
> > lies in the fact that they where flying a
spinnaker.
> > > That sail is so much fuller in shape it would
redirect the wind
> > passing it much more than a flatter sail (or no
sail at all)
would.
> > >
> > > Some time ago I
read an interesting article on a una rigged mono
> > with a wing
mast. It was designed not to fly downwind extra's.
> > > The owner
did have a gennaker but it only gave him one knot of
extra
> >
boat speed. It was concluded the tighter sheeting angle of the
main
> > might be responsible for this. The gennaker would
generate so much
> > disturbance of the air passing at the leeward
side it doesn't
attach
> > to the main any more. Therefore the
main doesn't generate lift as
it
> > does whith no head sail in
front and is only producing drag which
> > helps downwind but
not as much as lift would.
> > > ----- Original
Message -----
> > > From: Rob Denney
> >
> To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:19 PM
> >
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: sailing Elementarry
> >
>
> > >
> > > G'day,
> >
>
> > > Not sure the kite would have helped much as
the apparent was
well
> > forward of the beam. Still intend
to try it because they are such
> > great fun. Interestingly,
the Tornado was strapped in hard,
traveller
> > on the
centreline, whereas i was quite eased on the same point of
sail
>
> and at the same speed. Lots to learn...
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> >
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