Re capsizing. I have capsized Elementarry a
few times. The masts keep it on it's side and also act as a sea anchor, so
it blows round with the masts pointing upwind. This happens very quickly,
usually before I have finished swearing. I then right it by deploying and
standing on a 3m long piece of 4 x 2 timber,
tied to the windward hull and braced against the lee end of one of the
beams. Bit of a balancing act to get out there, but it comes up pretty
easily, and rounds up head to wind in the process. A kite would be a fun
option on the bigger boats, but I suspect a big canvas bag of water and a block
and tackle would be easier to use. The windage of the trampoline and
cabins are helpful once it has blown round masthead to windward, but it sure
blows sideways fast. In 20 knots, I can barely keep up swimming flat
rob----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:10
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m
Thanks, I was going to try High Modulus ( the boss lives
just over the hill
from here), on the materials list for harrigami which
I',m using as a guide
for harry you simply give a price for a prof. made
spar and suggest a new
system that will reduce the figure significantly.
I'm assuming that since that
was written the new system is up and running,
care to comment on relative
price now it's been done.
Original Message ------
Received: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:02:16 AM MST
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m
The thicker the tow, the lower the cost. 200
gsm carbon cloth is made from 3k
tow k stands for thousand, 3k is 3,000
filaments per tow. We use 48, 50 or 80
and I am trying to get some
160k. T300 or equivalent is the grade you want.
Otherwise known as
There is a world wide shortage of carbon at the
moment, probably till the end
of this year, when with new plants coming on
line, there may be a glut. The
price is high at the moment,. will
reduce when the new plant come on line,
regardless of a glut or not.
We were paying $US7.70 per pound, ex Texas a year or so ago.
Finding it very
hard to get any at all at the moment. When we do get
some, it will be a big
order. You are welcome to include your order
in ours and receive our price.
Original Message -----
From: David Howie
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 9:40
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi
going over the material list trying to get prices here, can you tell
what I should be asking for regards the carbon tow, seems it comes in
variety of shapes and sizes.
------ Original Message ------
Received: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:30:13
From: "Rob Denney" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re:
8.5m multi "box rule"
the Bol d'Or this year? Would be glad to sail it with you of we
get the boat to and from Belgium to Switzerland. Fun would
be no problem,
beating the M2's may be.
A una rigged El with
carbon/nomex, pressure moulded everything looks like it
will be near enough
90 kgs. An 8.5m would be less than 150% of
For light air sailing mast height is everything (see
Bethwaites book) as
wind strength increases rapidly with height.
Therefore the highest mast
possible would be the aim, rather than the
largest sail area. The problem
then becomes what to do with the extra
height in a breeze. One possibility
with a mast with no external
fittings (forestay, wishbone, etc) is a
telescoping mast. Doing this
with a round mast is pretty difficult, but with
a wing mast it would
a lot easier. Would not be as quick as hoisting/dousing
but in a race where it is either windy or not, it has some
rob ----- Original Message
Sent: Thursday, January
26, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi
DEFINITELY interested to sail the Elementarry, and yes
probably right, do the bol d'Or unofficially with
a crew of two.
One one the goals is putting my company
name on the sails o hulls, and
even unofficially it will
get some media coverage... The main goal
being to have
The 8.5m EL would be less than 200kg racing, the
8.5m cats weigh a
little less than 400kg, so EL needs
about 2x less sail area for the
same sail/displ ratio,
Hence the Melges sails. Also a way to limit costs.
But it might be possible to find sails designed for the 8.5m,
DOUBLING the ratio! Might be overkill, and
email@example.com, "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
> Fixed length is
not a proa strong point. I am not sure whether the
weight and windage savings possible with a proa would offset that
not. It would certainly cost a lot less.
I would love to have a go
at designing something for
it.. There are a few areas that proas can
exploit that are not open to cats.
> Maybe wait and see how the Elementarry being built
in Belgium goes
against the Tornados (this summer, I
hope) and then look at what
should be scaled up
and what can be reduced. Incidentally, I will not
be competing in the Bol d'Or (hope to be racing Blind Date
Denmark), but the boat is available for charter if
you or anyone is
interested. I would advise that
you do it unofficially with two crew,
officially with three.
> Could you let us know the beam, mast height and
sail area of the M2
class, please. On the web page
it looked like 70 sqm upwind, plus a
screecher, but this does not tally with the Melges
On this subject, I think the melges sails would
be too light, and not
of optimum plan form for a light
air boat which would have a near
> Sorry for misquoting, David mentioned
this box rule naturally.
> Yes these crazy boats are incredible, I have seen them flying
> on flat water, 8kn of speed with
5kn of wind. They work by creating
their apparent wind. But their top speed is estimated at 30kn.
> The last
horrible wind-less Bol d'Or was done with "winds averaging
> knots", the winner took 18 hours for
the 100 miles. That is beyond my
There are two classes. the M1 (only Decision 35 today) are
> costing half a million swiss
francs (about the same in AUD), with a
racing budget of maybe half that on top of it every year.
> hull skin is less tha a
> And they are low
cost machines versus the f40 they had before! A very
> well known owner of D35 is bertarelli, yes the poor guy who
> alinghi and the america cup...
Well I do not have any prospect of
competing (financially) for some time to come, even if I am a
> optimistic type.... But this
might be a job for a Turbo-Harrigami.
> But there is the M2 class, and the M2
are much more "accessible" (for
catamaran, around 100kCHF). The M2 are very close in performance
> the M1, and I would be very happy to
be in the 10 first of the Bol
> d'Or to
HarryM2 would probably cost much less than that (Rob, am I
> because of the structural
advantage, and would be competitive with
> much less high tech gear than the cats and tris in this
> would be nice to be
competitive with wood-epoxy hulls and minimal use
> of carbon (only rig and beams), against all-carbon-kevlar
> machines. Kind of David against
Goliath. But David still needs a good
> slingshot! And HarryM2 would still need a lot a sail.
decrease cost while keeping good performance, I am wondering
> whole rig for an 8.5m can be
built around "standard" sails. For
example, a melges 24 sail plan (24m2 main, 10m2 jib), of which
> find (not very much) used sails for
reasonable prices, while only
to recut the jib a bit.
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Mike Crawford
> > I think it was David
Howie who wrote about the box rule, and
> > shows up in my posts because I
keep on replying in the same thread.
Any ideas David?
> > BTW, If I wanted to
race on Lake Geneva, I'd be much more
> > want something like those
Décision 35's for which you provided a
> > That was you,
Dominique, wasn't it? In any case, I'm astounded
> > sail area carried by those
boats, and am truly amazed with the
> > that shows them flying hulls and
sailing at speed without a single
whitecap to be seen. I'd simply love to sail one for a few days.
> > Those boats are way too finicky and fragile
for something I'd
> > provided I could afford one in the first place, but
> > that they are masterful speed machines, especially for
> > I love the schooner rig with
flexible unstayed masts, I'm
> > from the perspective of racing
single-handed in gusty
conditions. In a
> > real race, in low wind, with
crews that know what they are
> > have a hard time imagining
anything beating a Décision 35.
> > I don't truly
want one of those fast cats for a variety of
> > but they sure do make me
drool. I'm going to go look at some
> > 35 photos now, and maybe watch
that video again.
> > -
> > dominiquebovey
> > > Hi,
> Mike just wrote about an 8.5m "box rule". On Lake
> > > there are two multihull classes, M1 (10.8m hull
> > > Alinghi/Bertarelli is
doing this) and M2 (8.5m), see this link:
> > > http://www.regates.ch/index.asp?ID=354.
> > > My conceptions of rig stiffness are somehow
influenced by the
> > >
areas you see on the diagram... And lake geneva is
> > > with most summer races in ghosting conditions
> > >
d'or"), but in spring and fall there can be quite a lot of
> > > What is the "box rule"
you are talking about,Mike?
> > >
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