Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi
From: "Rob Denney" <>
Date: 1/28/2006, 6:27 PM

High Mod are an excellent mob.    Mast options are to build your own using the strip technique on and or buy one from us built using our new mouldless technique.  I cannot be specific on prices until carbon tow becomes available again, unfortunately.  The self built mast will obviously be cheaper, a little heavier, and more fun, depending on your definition of fun!  Probably a thousand dollars difference between the two, plus freight.
Re capsizing.  I have capsized Elementarry a few times.  The masts keep it on it's side and also act as a sea anchor, so it blows round with the masts pointing upwind.  This happens very quickly, usually before I have finished swearing.  I then right it by deploying and standing on a 3m long piece of 4 x 2 timber, tied to the windward hull and braced against the lee end of one of the beams.  Bit of a balancing act to get out there, but it comes up pretty easily, and rounds up head to wind in the process.  A kite would be a fun option on the bigger boats, but I suspect a big canvas bag of water and a block and tackle would be easier to use.  The windage of the trampoline and cabins are helpful once it has blown round masthead to windward, but it sure blows sideways fast.  In 20 knots, I can barely keep up swimming flat out. 
rob----- Original Message -----
From: David Howie
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi

Thanks, I was going to try High Modulus ( the boss lives just over the hill
from here), on the materials list for harrigami which I',m using as a guide
for harry you simply give a price for a prof. made spar and suggest a new
system that will reduce the figure significantly. I'm assuming that since that
was written the new system is up and running, care to comment on relative
price now it's been done.

------ Original Message ------
Received: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:02:16 AM MST
From: "Rob Denney"
To: <>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi


The thicker the tow, the lower the cost.  200 gsm carbon cloth is made from 3k
tow k stands for thousand, 3k is 3,000 filaments per tow.  We use 48, 50 or 80
and I am trying to get some 160k.  T300 or equivalent is the grade you want.
Otherwise known as standard modulus.

There is a world wide shortage of carbon at the moment, probably till the end
of this year, when with new plants coming on line, there may be a glut.  The
price is high at the moment,. will reduce when the new plant come on line,
regardless of a glut or not. 

We were paying $US7.70 per pound, ex Texas a year or so ago.  Finding it very
hard to get any at all at the moment.  When we do get some, it will be a big
order.  You are welcome to include your order in ours and receive our price.


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: David Howie
  Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 9:40 AM
  Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi

  I'm going over the material list trying to get prices here, can you tell me
what I should be asking for regards the carbon tow, seems it comes in a
variety of shapes and sizes.


  ------ Original Message ------
  Received: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:30:13 AM MST
  From: "Rob Denney" <>
  To: <>
  Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box rule"


  When is the Bol d'Or this year?  Would be glad to sail it with you of we can
get the boat to and from Belgium to Switzerland.   Fun would be no problem,
beating the M2's may be.

  A una rigged El with carbon/nomex, pressure moulded everything looks like it
will be near enough 90 kgs.    An 8.5m would be less than 150% of this

  For light air sailing mast height is everything (see Bethwaites book) as
wind strength increases rapidly with height.  Therefore the highest mast
possible would be the aim, rather than the largest sail area.  The problem
then becomes what to do with the extra height in a breeze.  One possibility
with a mast with no external fittings (forestay, wishbone, etc) is a
telescoping mast.  Doing this with a round mast is pretty difficult, but with
a wing mast  it would a lot easier.  Would not be as quick as hoisting/dousing
a headsail, but in a race where it is either windy or not, it has some


  rob   ----- Original Message -----
    From: dominiquebovey
    Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:24 PM
    Subject: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box rule"

    I am DEFINITELY interested to sail the Elementarry, and yes you're
    probably right, do the bol d'Or unofficially with a crew of two.
    One one the goals is putting my company name on the sails o hulls, and
    even unofficially it will get some media coverage... The main goal
    being to have fun!
    The 8.5m EL would be less than 200kg racing, the 8.5m cats weigh a
    little less than 400kg, so EL needs about 2x less sail area for the
    same sail/displ ratio, Hence the Melges sails. Also a way to limit costs.

    But it might be possible to find sails designed for the 8.5m, therefor
    DOUBLING the ratio! Might be overkill, and difficult engineeringwise.

    --- In, "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
    > G'day,
    > Fixed length is not a proa strong point.  I am not sure whether the
    weight and windage savings possible with a proa would offset that or
    not.  It would certainly cost a lot less.  I would love to have a go
    at designing something for it..   There are a few areas that proas can
    exploit that are not open to cats.  
    > Maybe wait and see how the Elementarry being built in Belgium goes
    against the Tornados (this summer, I hope)  and then look at what
    should be scaled up and what can be reduced.  Incidentally, I will not
    be competing in  the Bol d'Or (hope to be racing Blind Date in
    Denmark), but the boat is available for charter if you or anyone is
    interested.  I would advise that you do it unofficially with two crew,
    rather than officially with three. 
    > Could you let us know the beam, mast height and sail area of the M2
    class, please.  On the web page it looked like 70 sqm upwind, plus a
    similar size screecher, but this does not tally with the Melges sails.
    On this subject, I think the melges sails would be too light, and not
    of optimum plan form for a light air boat which would have a near
    rectangular main. 
    > regards,
    > rob
    >   Sorry for misquoting, David mentioned this box rule naturally.
    >   Yes these crazy boats are incredible, I have seen them flying a hull
    >   on flat water, 8kn of speed with 5kn of wind. They work by creating
    >   their apparent wind. But their top speed is estimated at 30kn.
    >   The last horrible wind-less Bol d'Or was done with "winds averaging 3
    >   knots", the winner took 18 hours for the 100 miles. That is beyond my
    >   nerves anyway.
    >   There are two classes. the M1 (only Decision 35 today) are machines
    >   costing half a million swiss francs (about the same in AUD), with a
    >   racing budget of maybe half that on top of it every year. The
    >   hull skin is less tha a millimeter thick...
    >   And they are low cost machines versus the f40 they had before! A very
    >   well known owner of D35 is bertarelli, yes the poor guy who owns
    >   alinghi and the america cup... Well I do not have any prospect of
    >   competing (financially) for some time to come, even if I am a rather
    >   optimistic type.... But this might be a job for a Turbo-Harrigami.
    >   But there is the M2 class, and the M2 are much more "accessible" (for
    >   a catamaran, around 100kCHF). The M2 are very close in performance to
    >   the M1, and I would be very happy to be in the 10 first of the Bol
    >   d'Or to start...
    >   A HarryM2 would probably cost much less than that (Rob, am I right?),
    >   because of the structural advantage, and would be competitive with
    >   much less high tech gear than the cats and tris in this class. It
    >   would be nice to be competitive with wood-epoxy hulls and minimal use
    >   of carbon (only rig and beams), against all-carbon-kevlar racing
    >   machines. Kind of David against Goliath. But David still needs a good

    >   slingshot! And HarryM2 would still need a lot a sail.
    >   To decrease cost while keeping good performance, I am wondering if
    >   whole rig for an 8.5m can be built around "standard" sails. For
    >   example, a melges 24 sail plan (24m2 main, 10m2 jib), of which you
    >   find (not very much) used sails for reasonable prices, while only
    >   needing to recut the jib a bit.
    >   --- In, Mike Crawford <jmichael@g...>
    >   >
    >   >
    >   >   I think it was David Howie who wrote about the box rule, and
    it just
    >   > shows up in my posts because I keep on replying in the same thread.

    >   >
    >   >   Any ideas David?
    >   >
    >   >   BTW, If I wanted to race on Lake Geneva, I'd be much more
    likely to
    >   > want something like those Décision 35's for which you provided a
    >   link.. 
    >   > That was you, Dominique, wasn't it?  In any case, I'm astounded
    by the
    >   > sail area carried by those boats, and am truly amazed with the
    >   > that shows them flying hulls and sailing at speed without a single
    >   > whitecap to be seen.  I'd simply love to sail one for a few days.
    >   >
    >   >   Those boats are way too finicky and fragile for something I'd
    >   > provided I could afford one in the first place, but there's no
    >   > that they are masterful speed machines, especially for light air.
    >   While
    >   > I love the schooner rig with flexible unstayed masts, I'm
    viewing this
    >   > from the perspective of racing single-handed in gusty
    conditions.  In a
    >   > real race, in low wind, with crews that know what they are
    doing, I'd
    >   > have a hard time imagining anything beating  a Décision 35.
    >   >
    >   >   I don't truly want one of those fast cats for a variety of
    >   > but they sure do make me drool.  I'm going to go look at some
    >   > 35 photos now, and maybe watch that video again.
    >   >
    >   >
    >   >        - Mike
    >   >
    >   >
    >   >
    >   > dominiquebovey wrote:
    >   >
    >   > > Hi,
    >   > > Mike just wrote about an 8.5m "box rule". On Lake Geneva,
    >   > > there are two multihull classes, M1 (10.8m hull length,
    >   > > Alinghi/Bertarelli is doing this) and M2 (8.5m), see this link:
    >   > >
    >   > > My conceptions of rig stiffness are somehow influenced by the
    >   > > areas you see on the diagram... And lake geneva is terrible
    for wind,
    >   > > with most summer races in ghosting conditions (including the
    >   > > d'or"), but in spring and fall there can be quite a lot of wind.
    >   > > What is the "box rule" you are talking about,Mike?
    >   > >
    >   > >
    >   >
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