Rig commitment could be at any stage. In
fact, on El#2 we have 3 mast tubes so it can be sailed as either schooner, una
or ballestron. Wish I had done the same on my boat, as I am now faced with
cutting a chunk out of the side to put the central one in.
regards,
rob----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:11
AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m
multi
I like your stories about sailing the little one. First
time I flipped the A
class I discovered I could not swim fast enough to
catch it, second time over
I broke the tiller extension coz I refused to
let go, now if I'm out by myself
(ie no rescue boat) I have a line around
my waist and tied to the main beam.
Thanks again for all the help. I'll
contact HM tues (anniversarty weekend
here) and see what they have to say.
If I were to build all the smaller
components first at what point along the
way would I have to make a commitment
on the rig, when building the lw
hull?
------ Original Message ------
Received: Sat, 28 Jan 2006
04:27:42 PM MST
From: "Rob Denney"
To:
<harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m
multi
G'day,
High Mod are an excellent mob.
Mast options are to build your own using the
strip technique on http://www.harryproa.com/building_hg/buildinghg_wk14.htm
and
http://www.harryproa.com/building_hg/buildinghg_wk15.htm
or buy one from
us built using our new mouldless technique. I cannot
be specific on prices
until carbon tow becomes available again,
unfortunately. The self built mast
will obviously be cheaper, a
little heavier, and more fun, depending on your
definition of fun!
Probably a thousand dollars difference between the two,
plus
freight.
Re capsizing. I have capsized Elementarry a few
times. The masts keep it on
it's side and also act as a sea anchor,
so it blows round with the masts
pointing upwind. This happens very
quickly, usually before I have finished
swearing. I then right it by
deploying and standing on a 3m long piece of 4 x
2 timber, tied to the
windward hull and braced against the lee end of one of
the beams. Bit
of a balancing act to get out there, but it comes up pretty
easily, and
rounds up head to wind in the process. A kite would be a fun
option
on the bigger boats, but I suspect a big canvas bag of water and a
block
and tackle would be easier to use. The windage of the trampoline
and
cabins are helpful once it has blown round masthead to windward, but it
sure
blows sideways fast. In 20 knots, I can barely keep up swimming
flat out.
regards,
rob----- Original Message -----
From: David Howie
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent:
Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m
multi
Thanks, I was going to try High Modulus ( the boss
lives just over the hill
from here), on the materials list for
harrigami which I',m using as a guide
for harry you simply give a
price for a prof. made spar and suggest a new
system that will
reduce the figure significantly. I'm assuming that since
that
was
written the new system is up and running, care to comment on
relative
price now it's been done.
------ Original
Message ------
Received: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:02:16 AM MST
From: "Rob Denney" <proa@iinet.net.au>
To:
<harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re:
8.5m multi
G'day,
The thicker the tow, the lower
the cost. 200 gsm carbon cloth is made from
3k
tow k stands
for thousand, 3k is 3,000 filaments per tow. We use 48, 50
or
80
and I am trying to get some 160k. T300 or equivalent
is the grade you want.
Otherwise known as standard
modulus.
There is a world wide shortage of carbon at the moment,
probably till the
end
of this year, when with new plants coming
on line, there may be a glut.
The
price is high at the moment,.
will reduce when the new plant come on line,
regardless of a glut or
not.
We were paying $US7.70 per pound, ex Texas a year or
so ago. Finding it
very
hard to get any at all at the
moment. When we do get some, it will be a
big
order.
You are welcome to include your order in ours and receive our
price.
regards,
rob
----- Original Message -----
From: David Howie
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 9:40 AM
Subject: Re:
[harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi
I'm going over the
material list trying to get prices here, can you tell
me
what I
should be asking for regards the carbon tow, seems it comes in a
variety of shapes and sizes.
Thanks
------ Original Message
------
Received: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:30:13 AM
MST
From: "Rob Denney"
<proa@iinet.net.au>
To:
<harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Subject: Re:
[harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box rule"
G'day,
When is the Bol d'Or this year? Would
be glad to sail it with you of we
can
get the boat to and from
Belgium to Switzerland. Fun would be no problem,
beating
the M2's may be.
A una rigged El with carbon/nomex,
pressure moulded everything looks like
it
will be near enough 90
kgs. An 8.5m would be less than 150% of
this
For light air sailing mast height is everything
(see Bethwaites book) as
wind strength increases rapidly with
height. Therefore the highest mast
possible would be the aim,
rather than the largest sail area. The problem
then becomes
what to do with the extra height in a breeze. One possibility
with a mast with no external fittings (forestay, wishbone, etc) is a
telescoping mast. Doing this with a round mast is pretty difficult,
but
with
a wing mast it would a lot easier. Would not
be as quick as
hoisting/dousing
a headsail, but in a race where
it is either windy or not, it has some
potential.
regards,
rob
----- Original Message -----
From:
dominiquebovey
To:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent:
Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject:
[harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box
rule"
Rob,
I am DEFINITELY interested to sail the
Elementarry, and yes you're
probably right,
do the bol d'Or unofficially with a crew of two.
One one the goals is putting my company
name on the sails o hulls, and
even
unofficially it will get some media coverage... The main
goal
being to have
fun!
The 8.5m EL would be less than 200kg
racing, the 8.5m cats weigh a
little less
than 400kg, so EL needs about 2x less sail area for
the
same sail/displ ratio, Hence the Melges
sails. Also a way to limit
costs.
But
it might be possible to find sails designed for the 8.5m,
therefor
DOUBLING the ratio! Might be
overkill, and difficult engineeringwise.
--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
wrote:
>
>
G'day,
>
> Fixed length is not a proa strong
point. I am not sure whether the
weight and windage savings possible with a proa would offset that
or
not. It would certainly cost a lot
less. I would love to have a go
at
designing something for it.. There are a few areas that proas
can
exploit that are not open to
cats.
>
> Maybe wait and see how the Elementarry
being built in Belgium goes
against the
Tornados (this summer, I hope) and then look at
what
should be scaled up and what can be
reduced. Incidentally, I will not
be
competing in the Bol d'Or (hope to be racing Blind Date
in
Denmark), but the boat is available for
charter if you or anyone is
interested. I would advise that you do it unofficially with two
crew,
rather than officially with
three.
>
> Could you let us know the beam, mast
height and sail area of the M2
class,
please. On the web page it looked like 70 sqm upwind, plus
a
similar size screecher, but this does not
tally with the Melges sails.
On this
subject, I think the melges sails would be too light, and
not
of optimum plan form for a light air
boat which would have a near
rectangular
main.
>
>
regards,
>
> rob
>
>
> Sorry for misquoting,
David mentioned this box rule naturally.
>
> Yes these crazy boats
are incredible, I have seen them flying
a
hull
> on flat water,
8kn of speed with 5kn of wind. They work by
creating
> their apparent
wind. But their top speed is estimated at 30kn.
>
> The last horrible wind-less Bol d'Or was done with "winds
averaging
3
> knots", the
winner took 18 hours for the 100 miles. That is
beyond
my
> nerves anyway.
>
> There are two classes. the M1 (only Decision 35 today) are
machines
> costing half a
million swiss francs (about the same in AUD), with
a
> racing budget of maybe
half that on top of it every year. The
pre-preg
> hull skin is less
tha a millimeter thick...
>
And they are low cost machines versus the f40 they had before!
A
very
> well known owner
of D35 is bertarelli, yes the poor guy who
owns
> alinghi and the
america cup... Well I do not have any prospect
of
> competing (financially)
for some time to come, even if I am
a
rather
> optimistic
type.... But this might be a job for a
Turbo-Harrigami.
>
> But there is the M2 class,
and the M2 are much more
"accessible"
(for
> a
catamaran, around 100kCHF). The M2 are very close in
performance
to
> the M1,
and I would be very happy to be in the 10 first of the
Bol
> d'Or to
start...
>
> A HarryM2 would probably
cost much less than that (Rob, am
I
right?),
> because of
the structural advantage, and would be competitive
with
> much less high tech
gear than the cats and tris in this class.
It
> would be nice to be
competitive with wood-epoxy hulls and
minimal
use
> of carbon
(only rig and beams), against all-carbon-kevlar
racing
> machines. Kind of
David against Goliath. But David still needs
a
good
> slingshot!
And HarryM2 would still need a lot a sail.
>
> To decrease cost
while keeping good performance, I am wondering if
the
> whole rig for an 8.5m
can be built around "standard" sails. For
> example, a melges 24 sail plan (24m2 main, 10m2 jib), of
which you
> find (not very
much) used sails for reasonable prices, while
only
> needing to recut the
jib a bit.
>
> --- In
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, Mike Crawford
<jmichael@g...>
wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I think
it was David Howie who wrote about the box rule,
and
it just
> > shows up in my posts
because I keep on replying in the
same
thread.
> >
> > Any ideas
David?
> >
> > BTW, If I
wanted to race on Lake Geneva, I'd be much
more
likely to
> > want something like
those Décision 35's for which you provided a
> link..
> > That was you, Dominique, wasn't it? In any case,
I'm astounded
by the
> > sail area carried by
those boats, and am truly amazed with the
video
> > that shows them
flying hulls and sailing at speed without a
single
> > whitecap to
be seen. I'd simply love to sail one for a few
days.
> >
> > Those
boats are way too finicky and fragile for something
I'd
get,
> > provided I could afford one in the first place, but
there's no
denying
> > that they are
masterful speed machines, especially for light
air.
> While
> > I love the schooner
rig with flexible unstayed masts, I'm
viewing this
> > from the
perspective of racing single-handed in gusty
conditions. In a
>
> real race, in low wind, with crews that know what they
are
doing, I'd
> > have a hard time
imagining anything beating a Décision
35.
> >
> > I don't
truly want one of those fast cats for a variety
of
reasons,
> > but they sure do make
me drool. I'm going to go look at some
Décision
> > 35 photos
now, and maybe watch that video again.
> >
> >
>
> -
Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > dominiquebovey
wrote:
> >
> > >
Hi,
> > > Mike just
wrote about an 8.5m "box rule". On Lake
Geneva,
switzerland,
> > >
there are two multihull classes, M1 (10.8m hull
length,
> > >
Alinghi/Bertarelli is doing this) and M2 (8.5m), see this
link:
> > > http://www.regates.ch/index.asp?ID=354.
> > > My conceptions of rig stiffness are somehow
influenced by the
sail
> > > areas you see on the diagram... And lake geneva is
terrible
for
wind,
> > > with most
summer races in ghosting conditions (including the
"bold
> > > d'or"), but
in spring and fall there can be quite a lot
of
wind.
> > > What
is the "box rule" you are talking
about,Mike?
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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