Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi
From: "Rob Denney" <>
Date: 1/29/2006, 2:29 AM

Rig commitment could be at any stage.  In fact, on El#2 we have 3 mast tubes so it can be sailed as either schooner, una or ballestron.  Wish I had done the same on my boat, as I am now faced with cutting a chunk out of the side to put the central one in. 
rob----- Original Message -----
From: David Howie
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi

I like your stories about sailing the little one. First time I flipped the A
class I discovered I could not swim fast enough to catch it, second time over
I broke the tiller extension coz I refused to let go, now if I'm out by myself
(ie no rescue boat) I have a line around my waist and tied to the main beam.
Thanks again for all the help. I'll contact HM tues (anniversarty weekend
here) and see what they have to say. If I were to build all the smaller
components first at what point along the way would I have to make a commitment
on the rig, when building the lw hull?
------ Original Message ------
Received: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 04:27:42 PM MST
From: "Rob Denney"
To: <>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi


High Mod are an excellent mob.    Mast options are to build your own using the
strip technique on
and or buy one from
us built using our new mouldless technique.  I cannot be specific on prices
until carbon tow becomes available again, unfortunately.  The self built mast
will obviously be cheaper, a little heavier, and more fun, depending on your
definition of fun!  Probably a thousand dollars difference between the two,
plus freight.

Re capsizing.  I have capsized Elementarry a few times.  The masts keep it on
it's side and also act as a sea anchor, so it blows round with the masts
pointing upwind.  This happens very quickly, usually before I have finished
swearing.  I then right it by deploying and standing on a 3m long piece of 4 x
2 timber, tied to the windward hull and braced against the lee end of one of
the beams.  Bit of a balancing act to get out there, but it comes up pretty
easily, and rounds up head to wind in the process.  A kite would be a fun
option on the bigger boats, but I suspect a big canvas bag of water and a
block and tackle would be easier to use.  The windage of the trampoline and
cabins are helpful once it has blown round masthead to windward, but it sure
blows sideways fast.  In 20 knots, I can barely keep up swimming flat out.


rob----- Original Message -----
  From: David Howie
  Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:10 AM
  Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi

  Thanks, I was going to try High Modulus ( the boss lives just over the hill
  from here), on the materials list for harrigami which I',m using as a guide
  for harry you simply give a price for a prof. made spar and suggest a new
  system that will reduce the figure significantly. I'm assuming that since
  was written the new system is up and running, care to comment on relative
  price now it's been done.

  ------ Original Message ------
  Received: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:02:16 AM MST
  From: "Rob Denney" <>
  To: <>
  Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi


  The thicker the tow, the lower the cost.  200 gsm carbon cloth is made from
  tow k stands for thousand, 3k is 3,000 filaments per tow.  We use 48, 50 or
  and I am trying to get some 160k.  T300 or equivalent is the grade you want.

  Otherwise known as standard modulus.

  There is a world wide shortage of carbon at the moment, probably till the
  of this year, when with new plants coming on line, there may be a glut.
  price is high at the moment,. will reduce when the new plant come on line,
  regardless of a glut or not. 

  We were paying $US7.70 per pound, ex Texas a year or so ago.  Finding it
  hard to get any at all at the moment.  When we do get some, it will be a
  order.  You are welcome to include your order in ours and receive our price.


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: David Howie
    Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 9:40 AM
    Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi

    I'm going over the material list trying to get prices here, can you tell
  what I should be asking for regards the carbon tow, seems it comes in a
  variety of shapes and sizes.


    ------ Original Message ------
    Received: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:30:13 AM MST
    From: "Rob Denney" <>
    To: <>
    Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box rule"


    When is the Bol d'Or this year?  Would be glad to sail it with you of we
  get the boat to and from Belgium to Switzerland.   Fun would be no problem,
  beating the M2's may be.

    A una rigged El with carbon/nomex, pressure moulded everything looks like
  will be near enough 90 kgs.    An 8.5m would be less than 150% of this

    For light air sailing mast height is everything (see Bethwaites book) as
  wind strength increases rapidly with height.  Therefore the highest mast
  possible would be the aim, rather than the largest sail area.  The problem
  then becomes what to do with the extra height in a breeze.  One possibility
  with a mast with no external fittings (forestay, wishbone, etc) is a
  telescoping mast.  Doing this with a round mast is pretty difficult, but
  a wing mast  it would a lot easier.  Would not be as quick as
  a headsail, but in a race where it is either windy or not, it has some


    rob   ----- Original Message -----
      From: dominiquebovey
      Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:24 PM
      Subject: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box rule"

      I am DEFINITELY interested to sail the Elementarry, and yes you're
      probably right, do the bol d'Or unofficially with a crew of two.
      One one the goals is putting my company name on the sails o hulls, and
      even unofficially it will get some media coverage... The main goal
      being to have fun!
      The 8.5m EL would be less than 200kg racing, the 8.5m cats weigh a
      little less than 400kg, so EL needs about 2x less sail area for the
      same sail/displ ratio, Hence the Melges sails. Also a way to limit

      But it might be possible to find sails designed for the 8.5m, therefor
      DOUBLING the ratio! Might be overkill, and difficult engineeringwise.

      --- In, "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
      > G'day,
      > Fixed length is not a proa strong point.  I am not sure whether the
      weight and windage savings possible with a proa would offset that or
      not.  It would certainly cost a lot less.  I would love to have a go
      at designing something for it..   There are a few areas that proas can
      exploit that are not open to cats.  
      > Maybe wait and see how the Elementarry being built in Belgium goes
      against the Tornados (this summer, I hope)  and then look at what
      should be scaled up and what can be reduced.  Incidentally, I will not
      be competing in  the Bol d'Or (hope to be racing Blind Date in
      Denmark), but the boat is available for charter if you or anyone is
      interested.  I would advise that you do it unofficially with two crew,
      rather than officially with three. 
      > Could you let us know the beam, mast height and sail area of the M2
      class, please.  On the web page it looked like 70 sqm upwind, plus a
      similar size screecher, but this does not tally with the Melges sails.
      On this subject, I think the melges sails would be too light, and not
      of optimum plan form for a light air boat which would have a near
      rectangular main. 
      > regards,
      > rob
      >   Sorry for misquoting, David mentioned this box rule naturally.
      >   Yes these crazy boats are incredible, I have seen them flying a
      >   on flat water, 8kn of speed with 5kn of wind. They work by creating
      >   their apparent wind. But their top speed is estimated at 30kn.
      >   The last horrible wind-less Bol d'Or was done with "winds averaging
      >   knots", the winner took 18 hours for the 100 miles. That is beyond
      >   nerves anyway.
      >   There are two classes. the M1 (only Decision 35 today) are machines
      >   costing half a million swiss francs (about the same in AUD), with a
      >   racing budget of maybe half that on top of it every year. The
      >   hull skin is less tha a millimeter thick...
      >   And they are low cost machines versus the f40 they had before! A
      >   well known owner of D35 is bertarelli, yes the poor guy who owns
      >   alinghi and the america cup... Well I do not have any prospect of
      >   competing (financially) for some time to come, even if I am a
      >   optimistic type.... But this might be a job for a Turbo-Harrigami.
      >   But there is the M2 class, and the M2 are much more "accessible"
      >   a catamaran, around 100kCHF). The M2 are very close in performance
      >   the M1, and I would be very happy to be in the 10 first of the Bol
      >   d'Or to start...
      >   A HarryM2 would probably cost much less than that (Rob, am I
      >   because of the structural advantage, and would be competitive with
      >   much less high tech gear than the cats and tris in this class. It
      >   would be nice to be competitive with wood-epoxy hulls and minimal
      >   of carbon (only rig and beams), against all-carbon-kevlar racing
      >   machines. Kind of David against Goliath. But David still needs a

      >   slingshot! And HarryM2 would still need a lot a sail.
      >   To decrease cost while keeping good performance, I am wondering if
      >   whole rig for an 8.5m can be built around "standard" sails. For
      >   example, a melges 24 sail plan (24m2 main, 10m2 jib), of which you
      >   find (not very much) used sails for reasonable prices, while only
      >   needing to recut the jib a bit.
      >   --- In, Mike Crawford <jmichael@g...>
      >   >
      >   >
      >   >   I think it was David Howie who wrote about the box rule, and
      it just
      >   > shows up in my posts because I keep on replying in the same

      >   >
      >   >   Any ideas David?
      >   >
      >   >   BTW, If I wanted to race on Lake Geneva, I'd be much more
      likely to
      >   > want something like those Décision 35's for which you provided a
      >   link.. 
      >   > That was you, Dominique, wasn't it?  In any case, I'm astounded
      by the
      >   > sail area carried by those boats, and am truly amazed with the
      >   > that shows them flying hulls and sailing at speed without a single

      >   > whitecap to be seen.  I'd simply love to sail one for a few days.

      >   >
      >   >   Those boats are way too finicky and fragile for something I'd
      >   > provided I could afford one in the first place, but there's no
      >   > that they are masterful speed machines, especially for light air.

      >   While
      >   > I love the schooner rig with flexible unstayed masts, I'm
      viewing this
      >   > from the perspective of racing single-handed in gusty
      conditions.  In a
      >   > real race, in low wind, with crews that know what they are
      doing, I'd
      >   > have a hard time imagining anything beating  a Décision 35.
      >   >
      >   >   I don't truly want one of those fast cats for a variety of
      >   > but they sure do make me drool.  I'm going to go look at some
      >   > 35 photos now, and maybe watch that video again.
      >   >
      >   >
      >   >        - Mike
      >   >
      >   >
      >   >
      >   > dominiquebovey wrote:
      >   >
      >   > > Hi,
      >   > > Mike just wrote about an 8.5m "box rule". On Lake Geneva,
      >   > > there are two multihull classes, M1 (10.8m hull length,
      >   > > Alinghi/Bertarelli is doing this) and M2 (8.5m), see this link:
      >   > >
      >   > > My conceptions of rig stiffness are somehow influenced by the
      >   > > areas you see on the diagram... And lake geneva is terrible
      for wind,
      >   > > with most summer races in ghosting conditions (including the
      >   > > d'or"), but in spring and fall there can be quite a lot of
      >   > > What is the "box rule" you are talking about,Mike?
      >   > >
      >   > >
      >   >

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