G'day,
Ready and willing! Especially to see
how it handles the thunderstorms!
Texel is the same weekend. Does not
bother me much which one we do, both should be a heap of fun, and neither will
let us enter officially. However, Texel is just up the road from
Belgium, Switzerland is a major road trip. Any suggestions for
getting the boat there and back?
The wing mast keeps the telescoping section
aligned, making it easier to hoist and lower. The trick is to have the
larger piece on the top. Then there are no sail track problems and the
uphaul line should not jam. The ability to halve the sail area
and the weight and centre of gravity of the rig is a handy attribute, not sure
it would be sufficient to handle a 45 knot gust, but lowering the sail all the
way down is a fairly simple task. The ability to have the rig weathercock
would make the 45 knots much more manageable than on the stayed rigs.
Interesting about the enormous reachers. Do
boats like the M20 (una rigged Marstom superlight tornado beater) use big
reachers on the lake? While I have to agree that they are successful on
the M2's and Formula 40's, I still think that the added weight of sail and gear,
plus the difficulty of setting and shunting it, and the beefing up required make
it more of a liability on an Elementarry. Be great to do some tests and
find out though.
regards,
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:18
AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box
rule"
Rob, the 2006 Bol d'Or will be June 17-18.
Ready for 93
miles of lake racing?
I also do not think we'll have a chance against the
M2s with the EL,
but hey, it will be fun. I only hope there will be more
wind than in
2005. You're welcome to stay over at our place, naturally.
I agree about the importance of mast height, as limited as it is
in
the M2 class to a meagre 16.6m ;-) Most racing boats here have
mains
that are almost square. But nobody does it with unstayed una
rigs,
because you absolutely need big reachers. A main only has not
enough
sail area. And I do still believe, as most havigators here, in
the
positive effect of a jib in front of the main.
I do not quite
see how you can telescope a mast, even an unstayed one,
when sailing. Do
you mean you do you do this at the harbour, or even
prior to assembling the
boat? And how does the wing mast make this
easier vs. the round
mast?
I am not sure the "extra height" is a problem in the breeze. IMHO
once
you've taken a reef, the upper section adds some sail area high
up,
but this is not so much of a problem.
There is the problems of
surviving the 45kn of a thunderstorm. Wind
usually builds up to this speed
from flat calm in 2-3 minutes, so you
better take all sails down - fast!
And ideally a seasoned crew should
be able to keep the boat upright with a
bare rig, for the 30-45min
this lasts. But if the boat capsizes, then you
can wait for some power
boat to pull you upright (or gather the remains of
the boat). On this
lake you're never more than 4nm offhore at its widest.
In order not to
be washed ashore (which is mostly steep and rocky) you even
ought to
capsize!
--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney"
<proa@i...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> When is the
Bol d'Or this year? Would be glad to sail it with you
of we can get
the boat to and from Belgium to Switzerland. Fun would
be no
problem, beating the M2's may be.
>
> A una rigged El with
carbon/nomex, pressure moulded everything looks
like it will be near enough
90 kgs. An 8.5m would be less than 150%
of this
>
> For light air sailing mast height is everything (see
Bethwaites
book) as wind strength increases rapidly with height.
Therefore the
highest mast possible would be the aim, rather than the
largest sail
area. The problem then becomes what to do with the extra
height in a
breeze. One possibility with a mast with no external
fittings
(forestay, wishbone, etc) is a telescoping mast. Doing this
with a
round mast is pretty difficult, but with a wing mast it would
a lot
easier. Would not be as quick as hoisting/dousing a headsail,
but in
a race where it is either windy or not, it has some potential.
>
> regards,
>
> rob ----- Original
Message -----
> From: dominiquebovey
>
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> Sent: Thursday, January
26, 2006 1:24 PM
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: 8.5m multi "box
rule"
>
>
> Rob,
> I am
DEFINITELY interested to sail the Elementarry, and yes
you're
> probably right, do the bol d'Or unofficially with a
crew of two.
> One one the goals is putting my company name
on the sails o hulls, and
> even unofficially it will get
some media coverage... The main goal
> being to have
fun!
> The 8.5m EL would be less than 200kg racing, the 8.5m
cats weigh a
> little less than 400kg, so EL needs about 2x
less sail area for the
> same sail/displ ratio, Hence the
Melges sails. Also a way to limit
costs.
> But it might
be possible to find sails designed for the 8.5m, therefor
>
DOUBLING the ratio! Might be overkill, and difficult engineeringwise.
>
> --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney"
<proa@i...> wrote:
> >
> >
G'day,
> >
> > Fixed length is not
a proa strong point. I am not sure whether the
>
weight and windage savings possible with a proa would offset that
or
> not. It would certainly cost a lot less. I
would love to have a go
> at designing something for
it.. There are a few areas that proas can
>
exploit that are not open to cats.
> >
> > Maybe wait and see how the Elementarry being built
in Belgium goes
> against the Tornados (this summer, I
hope) and then look at what
> should be scaled up and
what can be reduced. Incidentally, I will not
> be
competing in the Bol d'Or (hope to be racing Blind Date
in
> Denmark), but the boat is available for charter if you
or anyone is
> interested. I would advise that you do
it unofficially with two crew,
> rather than officially with
three.
> >
> > Could you let
us know the beam, mast height and sail area of the M2
>
class, please. On the web page it looked like 70 sqm upwind, plus
a
> similar size screecher, but this does not tally with the
Melges sails.
> On this subject, I think the melges sails
would be too light, and not
> of optimum plan form for a
light air boat which would have a near
> rectangular
main.
> >
> >
regards,
> >
> >
rob
> >
> >
>
> Sorry for misquoting, David mentioned this box rule
naturally.
> >
> > Yes
these crazy boats are incredible, I have seen them flying
a
hull
> > on flat water, 8kn of speed with 5kn
of wind. They work by
creating
> > their
apparent wind. But their top speed is estimated at 30kn.
>
>
> > The last horrible wind-less Bol
d'Or was done with "winds
averaging 3
> >
knots", the winner took 18 hours for the 100 miles. That is
beyond
my
> > nerves anyway.
>
>
> > There are two classes. the M1 (only
Decision 35 today) are
machines
> >
costing half a million swiss francs (about the same in AUD),
with
a
> > racing budget of maybe half that on top
of it every year. The
pre-preg
> > hull
skin is less tha a millimeter thick...
> >
And they are low cost machines versus the f40 they had before!
A
very
> > well known owner of D35 is
bertarelli, yes the poor guy who owns
> >
alinghi and the america cup... Well I do not have any prospect
of
> > competing (financially) for some time
to come, even if I am a
rather
> >
optimistic type.... But this might be a job for a
Turbo-Harrigami.
> >
>
> But there is the M2 class, and the M2 are much
more
"accessible" (for
> > a catamaran,
around 100kCHF). The M2 are very close in
performance
to
> > the M1, and I would be very happy to
be in the 10 first of the Bol
> > d'Or to
start...
> >
> > A
HarryM2 would probably cost much less than that (Rob, am
I
right?),
> > because of the structural
advantage, and would be competitive with
> >
much less high tech gear than the cats and tris in this class.
It
> > would be nice to be competitive with
wood-epoxy hulls and
minimal use
> > of
carbon (only rig and beams), against all-carbon-kevlar
racing
> > machines. Kind of David against
Goliath. But David still needs
a good
> >
slingshot! And HarryM2 would still need a lot a sail.
>
>
> > To decrease cost while keeping good
performance, I am
wondering if the
> >
whole rig for an 8.5m can be built around "standard" sails.
For
> > example, a melges 24 sail plan (24m2
main, 10m2 jib), of which you
> > find (not
very much) used sails for reasonable prices, while only
>
> needing to recut the jib a bit.
> >
> > --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au,
Mike Crawford <jmichael@g...>
>
wrote:
> > >
>
> >
> > > I
think it was David Howie who wrote about the box rule, and
>
it just
> > > shows up in my posts
because I keep on replying in the same
thread.
>
> >
> > >
Any ideas David?
> > >
> > > BTW, If I wanted to
race on Lake Geneva, I'd be much more
> likely to
> > > want something like those Décision
35's for which you provided a
> >
link..
> > > That was you,
Dominique, wasn't it? In any case, I'm astounded
> by
the
> > > sail area carried by those
boats, and am truly amazed with the
> video
> > > that shows them flying hulls and
sailing at speed without a
single
> >
> whitecap to be seen. I'd simply love to sail one for a few
days.
> > >
>
> > Those boats are way too finicky and fragile
for something I'd
> get,
>
> > provided I could afford one in the first place, but
there's no
> denying
> >
> that they are masterful speed machines, especially for light
air.
> > While
>
> > I love the schooner rig with flexible unstayed masts,
I'm
> viewing this
> >
> from the perspective of racing single-handed in gusty
>
conditions. In a
> > > real race,
in low wind, with crews that know what they are
> doing, I'd
> > > have a hard time imagining anything
beating a Décision 35.
> > >
> > > I don't truly want one
of those fast cats for a variety of
> reasons,
> > > but they sure do make me
drool. I'm going to go look at some
> Décision
> > > 35 photos now, and maybe watch that
video again.
> > >
>
> >
> >
> - Mike
>
> >
> > >
> > >
>
> > dominiquebovey wrote:
>
> >
> > > >
Hi,
> > > > Mike just wrote about an
8.5m "box rule". On Lake Geneva,
>
switzerland,
> > > > there are two
multihull classes, M1 (10.8m hull length,
> >
> > Alinghi/Bertarelli is doing this) and M2 (8.5m), see
this
link:
> > > > http://www.regates.ch/index.asp?ID=354.
>
> > > My conceptions of rig stiffness are somehow
influenced by
the sail
> > > > areas
you see on the diagram... And lake geneva is terrible
> for
wind,
> > > > with most summer races in
ghosting conditions (including
the "bold
>
> > > d'or"), but in spring and fall there can be quite a
lot of
wind.
> > > > What is the
"box rule" you are talking about,Mike?
> >
> >
> > > >
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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