Subject: Re: Rare bird and schooners
From: Mike Crawford
Date: 2/9/2006, 8:11 PM
To: rob dalton

  I took a semester of computer science at university, decided that I didn't want to go down that path, and chose to become a civil engineer instead.  I loved the degree, but the work itself was not that interesting, and ended up gravitating back to computers.  Fortunately, I do like what I do, which is thankfully different from what was being taught back in 1985.

  The day camp is my stepfather's camp.  I worked there for many years when I was younger, and then left when I graduated from college and got "real" jobs, including a stint in the Air Force, which paid for my education.  Now my stepdad wants to retire, and since I'd like to run a camp, it's a perfect fit.  While I enjoy tech consulting, it's getting old, and no longer fascinates me the way it used to.

  The camp is actually over 90 minutes from the ocean.  My sailing is done before the camp season starts, from mid April to early June, and after it's over, from late August to mid November.  We live about fifteen minutes from where our boat is moored, and have property right off the mooring on which we will someday build a house.  We look forward to always being that close to the boat, but in the meantime, we're certainly not suffering.

  I had to joke about the bow buoyancy because I'm currently reading early 2004 postings from the discussion group and see the same topic coming up.  It's funny to see it all at once.

  I'm waiting to see more about the single rudder before I form an opinion.  Like you, I just don't see it working.  But I have also learned to trust Rob, and therefore want to see what he comes up with.  I don't always agree with him, but he always has a good reason for his choices.

       - Mike

rob dalton wrote:
Couldn't help myself about going back. It was an itch that needed to be scratched. need to finish the PhD to make me more employable at uni. Meanwhile I am doing bits and pieces at uni Tutoring music, possibly microbiology, lined up some plant physiology lecturing and some work as a research assistant. I dabbled in software about 30 years ago and may have to get back to programming again for some of the modelling work. DIdn't really like having to be so careful about ever little bit of syntax. I assume you get on the water at your summer camps. 
Need a bit more solid work before I can get the bank balance healthy enough to build. My wife said she'd be happy for me to build it if I earn the money for it. Can't complain about that .
I think there is just enough room for the lw hull. If not, may have to make the trailer with ww hull slightly higher. 
You're right , I can't resist digging up the bone. Actually it may not be so useful for the single rudder effort. It needs water tests to check on its effects on leeway on the bows. It may be less drag and more leeway. I have wondered about the ooptimum sharpness as the boats bows are hitting at a slight angle due to leeway. I was wondering if a slight assymetry is optimal, but that might give lee helm. The main thing I think is to get the weight back with wings set 45 degree to the boat, between aft and windward. 

Mike Crawford <> wrote:

  That's quite a history.  My hat is off to you for going back and getting an advanced degree.  That's one of those things that I'd like to have if I could get it by waving a magic wand, but otherwise am not likely to pursue.  Fortunately I work in software development much of the year, and at a children's day camp in the summer time, and neither career requires a degree.

  I imagine you'll be building your boat before I start mine, so I look forward to seeing what you do with that folding system.  It makes a lot more sense if you can detach the system and leave it on the trailer.  That would be the best of both worlds.

  One note:  by my measurements, there's not enough room under the ww hull to store the lw hull on its side.  The trailer bunks would probably have to be higher for the ww hull to accommodate for this. 

       - Mike

rob dalton wrote:
The simplicity of schooner Una rigswith an outleader for down wind work appeats to me and significantly reduces loads needed for tensioning.
The way I invisage the Farrier system would cost less than a hundred dollars a beam. It would require two tubes glassed onto the ww hull, either a sleeve to go around the crossbeam and a couple of tubes glassed on to it or four short sections of track . It would then need four steel rods bent on the ends to insert into the tubes or have one end attached to a track slug. The last item needed is a short section of roller to clip on the bottom rods to hold them in position and providing stability in the stretched out position before pulling the beams into the sockets. If you look at it as an allignment system for inserting the crossbeams, then you want something like this for the trailer assembly anyway.
Insert the masts and crossbeams into the lw hull,
attach the allignment system,
winch out the hulls,
winch in the hulls to bed beams into the sockets.
tie in position,
remove the allignment system,
take to water.
 On return everything in reverse except that you would have to either push up the beams or pull out on the top of a mast as you pulled the hulls together. Somewhere in there the rudder blades need to be inserted  
The email address. I somehow got given a uk address but I don't know how it happened. It is too much hassle to change and I hope to pick up a uni address soon.
My history,
Started uni in engineering but drifted into maths as I could do the assignments in much less time and get much better grades. I was about to do my honours in pure maths when I got a job on a tuna poling boat in the summer break and somehow I stayed. FIshing work developed my practical engineering skills as crew are expected to do the maintenance and help with refurbishing when in dock. I decided to pick up a teaching diploma to tide me over when the other work was a bit slack. I became a single parent with four children which restricted the work I was able to do. My musical interests turned into paying work and I started getting students. This eventually turned into full time with over 40 students in woodwinds and guitar. When all my children were at  uni, I decided to go back to uni myself to study marine ecology, concentrating on algae, so I went to uni for a year and gained a sufficient grade to win a scholarship  to do a PhD.
I met a very nice person who was given a job as a Dean up at the Darwin uni and  I followed her. So, here I am, touting for work and surfing with crocodiles (a 2m Saltwater crocodile joined us in the surf. We had no objections as he was well mannered and didn't drop in. The local rag picked up some pictures and ran with it) 
Mike Crawford <> wrote:

  Good point about the man overboard.  The time saved by simply stopping and reversing is incalculable.  I hadn't thought about the anchoring issue.  The reefing is another big item.  Not only do you not have to worry about doubling the apparent wind, you also don't have to worry about the boat snapping around and capsizing when you're working on the sails -- the lw hull will simply stay leeward.  Plus, if you get a schooner rig, there will be no flogging of the sails once you let the sheets out, which is better for both the sails and the crew.

  I see the benefit of the farrier system in theory, especially now that you've come up with the idea of a temporary system used just for assembly and disassembly.  At this point the difference for me would come down to cost and convenience: is it cheaper and easier to build the functionality into the trailer or into the folding system.


  You seem to have an interesting history, by the way.  You've spent years commercial fishing, are working on a PhD, teach music, and are about to go into either lecturing or researching shark fishing sustainability.  That's a unique combo.  I've assumed you're in Australia because you talk about the Bass Strait and the reef hotel, but your email address ends in  Are you in Oz?

       - Mike

rob dalton wrote:
I agree with all you've said. Another few advantages. manoeveability under sail for picking up man overboard and crossing bars, being able to place a sea anchor over the stern and let the stern becomethe bow. Much more comfortable than having to put the sea anchor over the bow. Double ender makes beaching and leaving much safer.
If over sailed downwind then the sheets can be eased fully and the sails can easily be reefed, rather than contemplating rounding up to feather and doubling apparrent wind
I reckon extra accommodation could be included in the Visionarry by flaring the middle part of the ww side of the lw hull Don't think it is compromising seaworthiness or windage but certainly increasing the trailing width as it can no longer tuck under.
If the lw hull was rotated at the same time as pulled out then less room is needed for the mast. That in essense is the Farrier system. If the Farrier system is connected to a sleeve over the beams, then the beams can be slid in after folding. If the struts are then removed then there is very little increase in sailing weight.


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