Subject: Re: [harryproa] Sunday E/NE tending W/NW, Moderate
From: Doug Haines
Date: 11/25/2006, 11:44 PM

More sailing experience now shows a few points that are better than others.
1) I broke the rudder off the beam where the gudgeons are glassed on, too little contact area and too much torque due to the two gudgeons spaced so close together on the beam.
Will probably fix it back on with extra glass, but in future hope to improve on current design with Rob's single system though I have'nt had a close look at and don't know exactly how it all works, I turst Rob's designing, to get it sorted right.
2)I find the two mainsails a little complicated to watch and angle in to the wind, and steer too. It may be a good challenge to a pair of keen sailors but,  I'm not really that experienced sort of go on the feel somewhere between luffing up and too hard on, and see where the speed is. This sort of tuning is not so easy wih the two mainsails. I therefore suppose I might make the centre mast tube and bulkheads as Rob did by cutting a big hole in the side of the lw hull to retro-fit. I can use one of my current masts in that centre spot.
However there are a couple more issues on the mast/sails:
3)To get around Perth, up Rivers under bridges the masts need to swing down. I think this is fairly straight forward not adding too much extra bulk down around about boom height to make a hingewith pins or some fixing. The mast overall would need too be lighter than my wood/glass, too heavy too lift without excess effort. So a single mast in the centre with a hinge and light enough to drop and raise up so foam and carbon I suppose.
4) Another issue is that I found that the mainsail only ( called cat rig or una rig ?), would not swing around sometimes its a bit complicated but I wonder if the easy or ballestron rig would be easier to turn because you can sheet to both ends? I'm not sure about this I'll look for some internet diagrams or look at Harryproa galleries.
Incidently for cruising with two mainsails, lowering/raising sails out on the water you can't reach the aft boom end as it is lying far back over the stern. I.e. an easy rig would be easier to reach especially if ever wanting to reef offshore. I neede to jump in and walk down the back to tie on the clew (is that the back corner of the sail?) and your sail falls into the water a bit. The front sail/mast is easy to reach standing on the deck and netting.
I don't know about the dynamics but why the small jib on the easy rig wouldn't be better performance I don't know.
I occasionally wanted to push the boom back round through the wind and this would be easier with the balancing jib.
5) Definitely need a small outboard (2hp) on a bracket near the ww hull ( so the boom won't bang into it, and easier to reach for helmsman, and out of way of rudder). One direction only needed, opposite end that used for anchoring keeping things tidier.
Anyhow good fun sailing the proa this morning, good 8-12 knots I think, I think above improvements will be safe enough to venture in confidence out offshore, up and down the coast.
PS very sunny, shade cover really top iit off.
Questions or feedback from other proa builders (actually building or going to build) welcome.

Doug Haines <> wrote:

Rob Denney <> wrote:
Sorry, Sunday is out as we are spending the weekend doing classical music at a winery at Margaret River.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:02 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Sunday E/NE tending W/NW, Moderate

Ideal forecast for Sunday.
Come down to Manduah Rob if you can.
Anytime I'll take a mobile: 0406309440.

Doug Haines <> wrote:
How can you hinge the mast part that is in the tube?

Robert <> wrote:
-What I thought about earlier is to have a hinged sleeve. Lift the
mast till it is out of the hull but still in the sleeve and then you
can lay it flat with control,

-- In, Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> I think it is a cruising necessity to hinge masts on a small
cruiser. I don't see why it couldn't be done on the Elementarry.
> Been thinking about it, would also like a bracket/pod that tkes a
2hp outboard, then your bridges, adverse tides, moorings are more
like regular cruising situations.
> To me its not a day sailing, its as long as possible.
> Doug
> Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
> G'day,
> Good thinking. I am building 2 x 6m/20' pieces, joined at the
mast, with all the external carbon added after it is joined. The
removable ends will be built seperately. Could just as easily join
it at the beams.
> KSS would not allow the one join oval sections, nor the squashed
> Glassing part of the Polycore is not a good idea, as you damage
the scrim when you sand it to get a key for subsequent layers.
Welding on a piece of scrim may work, or if it is an inside curve,
bog should do the trick.
> regards,
> Rob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:38 AM
> Subject: [harryproa] Conoc sections
> Been thinking of Harry bows on the lw hull. The sections
forward of the
> rudders could be built using the squashed cone idea. If the the
> section of the lw hull with all its fiddly bits with the rudders
> mast bearings could be built separately and the bows added on later
> could be built in a much smaller space and making it much easier to
> work on those fiddly bits. This a fairly natural place to have a
> of curvature and needs a bit of fairing anyway with the rudder
> reinforcing. The fact that the hulls could be fair to well above
> water line suggest that hulls could be built using a KSS process
> no cutting or shutting below the waterline.
> I was wondering about the problems of bending the halfglassed
> and whether the joins could be made where you want the panels to be
> near flat and pre tape them with glass tape. Or possibly weld a
> of scrim over the joint
> Robert
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