Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Schooner v. Unariglike
From: "Rob Denney" <>
Date: 12/20/2006, 2:31 AM

Agreed, it is a nice boat.  He has the covered cockpit which I thought would be awful, but it looks very good.  No idea of his plans, you are top of the list behind me for the crew job.  Arrival will be at Whangerei, I think.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Baltaxe
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 4:44 AM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Schooner v. Unariglike

Hi Rob
I had a quick look at Bain's boat last Easter and it is everything I hoped a Harry would be. When is Bain planning to sail it across to NZ and is he (still) looking for crew? At the very least, I'll try to be on the beach to greet him with a bottle of Champers.

Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
(04) 463 5018 or 027 563 5018 

I suffer from mental incontinence.

Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein


From: [] On Behalf Of Rob Denney
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2006 3:02 a.m.
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Schooner v. Unariglike

Interesting stuff, particularly about the rig. 
We can offer most of what you require in a 12m harry, although the rig may not be as efficient as yours without the addition of running backstays to maintain forestay tension.  These would be mounted on the boom, and would only be required in moderate to strong breezes upwind.  Of course, if you were willing to accept slightly less pointing angle they could be left off, at least until you encounter another boat going to windward.
The harry built in our shed by Bain Robinson was launched last week.  Everyone so far is impressed, but until we do some sailing trials we will not know for sure.  There will be pictures of this on the web page in the very near future, hopefully including some of it sailing.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
----- Original Message -----
From: brag_rotor
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:53 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Schooner v. Unariglike

Fair comment, Rob.

I probably overreacted to their website, you're the designer,
grab whatever info helps you push back the frontiers of the

And thanks for your kind words.

Yes, Tiki 30s can be very quick, but we've probably been lucky
in the boats we met in anger. We seem to out-sail other Tiki 30s to
windward, seemed a bit closer to them off the wind, but still faster.

To be fair most cruising skippers don't seem to care about speed, but
for me it's a safety item in reserve - being able to find shelter at
the expense of a few bumpy hours at speed rather than taking a few
days bashing in a storm. Well that's the theory.

The research we did before buying the plans is 11 years ago,
so I'm not sure about numbers like the wetted area (relatively
large) and we do stick to the water in a near-calm more than
say) a mono like a J30, but once powered up we can beat those
monos - in my experience.

12.5 to 1 hulls help, the reasonably low aero drag on the
hulls compared with the 'accommodation cruisers' has to be important,
the comparitive lack of wires holding the rig up also must help.

My own fetish for keeping weight ashore rather than aboard makes
some difference (but less than you'd expect going to windward).

Positioning the load in the hulls is critical: the best results
are obtained with the bare (empty) boat waterline at the bow used
as a reference when loading. The bows must not be immersed much
more than this, the load should depress the stern, not the bow.

Although lashed together in true Wharram fashion, we use Spectra
lashings that stretch not a lot. Jacking up one stern causes the
other to rise when less than 5mm lift has occurred on the first.

We employ maximum mast rake, as far back as the box allows, and
this really matters to windward.

Having said all that, the Tiki 30 was intended primarily as a safe and
seaworthy boat that any fool could build, and it is. Oh yes.

We had an 'interesting' Biscay first attempt. Scared me silly, but
the boat was unimpressed. My crew (Pete Kyne, skipper of 'Dignity' a
Pahi 31) said that he'd cheerfully set sail in a full force 8 so long
as it was going our way, in a Tiki 30. He it was who took us 135 NM
in 10 hours and popped us out ahead of the storm front so effectively
that we had to motor into Brest at 5 knots (7.2 knots max on 5hp, but
we were low on fuel by then) That should give you a feel for the hull
drag performance.

Oh yes, bottom paint. CopperBot (as it then was) and now CopperCoat;
copper epoxy formulations that do just what they say on the tin. Can't
buy it in boatyards or chandlers here. Why would they sell you
something that means you haul out and repaint only after 6 years?

The rig is still a big element in my view. That sleeve luff with a
genoa set with its trailing edge in the maximum depression zone of the
main - measured with a manomoter. Spent a lot of time looking at the
theory and devising elastic vangs and things that let the gaff twist
off in a gust, so we can carry sail more safely in a blow.

Setting the sail twist matters of course, as does tuning the slot for
the genoa, but with a 4-sided main you can pretty much reshape it to
order, no hassle. And no boom! And - a big safety bonus imho - it
is painless to reef the main downwind. No poxy cars or slides to
jam, and only vestigial battens - enough to flatten the leech a bit
and prevent curl.

One of our light-air extras is a 3-sided bimini (or trimini) that used
to end-plate the main pretty well, but it's getting old and baggy like
the skipper, since acrylic canvas is not really meant for this task.

We also carried a home-brew thing that was an evil hybrid between a
screacher and a lugsail - made of polytarp and it blew out pretty
quick, but it pulled like a tractor!

The cruising chute is unused, since it is still too full after 2
recuts - we bring the wind forward of the beam too easily for it to be
any use. Have a tatty old spinny off a mono for dead downwind, but
very rarely use that since it pays to gybe, and the breeze across the
deck keeps us cool.

So what are we doing here if we have this wonder-boat? Well, it was
only meant as a training exercise to get master mate up to speed, but
as is so often, affection has grown over the years.

We need wider bunks, and a table to eat at, and a stand up galley, and
a shower below decks, and a *few* more comforts now we are ageing

To get that in an avilable cat we are looking at over 40 feet and many
tons that will need a proportionally large rig, large winches, and so
on. Don't like the implications of that. Weight is the enemy. Might
be possible at lower weight with a biplane rig.... but wait, what
about a proa? <grin>

We have lived/cruised fine on a 1 ton payload, including weight of
engine, anchors, rode, cooker, gas, etc. We've proved that.

So, say, 1.5 tons represents luxury to us! Olly wants her comforts -
like a 5 foot by 7 foot bunk, I need more headroom over it that so I
can sit up and read in the bunk, a dining area (and separate nav area
too) and we want/need a boat that pleases us both equally. That's only
fair, since we'll be sharing it. Rig needs to be easy and safe to
handle for arthritic fingers used to 385 sq feet total area of rig.

Over to you, Rob! (sorry for yet another rant....)

All the best, Ben and Olly aboard 'Pilgrim'

--- In, "Rob Denney" <proa@...> wrote:
> G'day,
> The Wylie has a lot of differences to a multi, but the unstayed mast
still has more in common with a harry rig than a stayed mast does.
Consequently, I would like to know their specs.
> Your Wharram performs extremely well. Apart from the sails, to what
do you attribute the performance, which is better than any other 30'
cruising boat I know of.
> Regards,
> Rob

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