Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Aerodynamics and sailing performance
From: "Rob Denney" <proa@iinet.net.au>
Date: 3/5/2007, 10:36 PM
To:
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

G'day,

Well said!

regards,

Rob
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Todd 
  To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:05 AM
  Subject: [harryproa] Re: Aerodynamics and sailing performance



  Hello Mike,

  Thanks for your time and effort of your take on the comparison.

  To me the comparison and what I believe single outrigger shunters 
  are your last paragraph sums it up. Single dominate hull shunters 
  are in a new class by them selfs with as good or better performance 
  than most of the off the shelf cats and tris on the market today. 
  Knowing that at any length wind speed or better can be achieved with 
  the least amount of equipment, least amount of weight, least amount 
  of sail, least amount of stress and strain on hull and float. Mybe 
  thats why as Rob said some builders/ designers have stopped 
  answering on price. It would be a shame for proffesional builders 
  getting beat on the water and in their pocket books on a craft that 
  can do it better at 1/10th the coast and 1/10th the materials. Are 
  they realizing the market of a craft once made from pile of 
  vegetation built with a keen sense of how nature works that sailed 
  circles around other craft of thier day and into the future. 

  On production line boats I'd never own one are you kidding me talk 
  about least of this an that, and the use of materials not really 
  designed for the water... polyester resin come on. 

  So now they charge for performance of the craft A sad spiral down 
  the tubes for proas. 

  Todd

  --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, Mike Crawford <jmichael@...> 
  wrote:
  >
  > Todd,
  > 
  > It's nice to see some boats for comparison. The Reynolds and 
  Wharram
  > are both great boats at what they do, but aren't really great at 
  what
  > the harryproas do. I'll write up a quick comparison, and will also
  > include a Farrier F36, which is probably the closest thing in 
  terms of
  > apples and oranges.
  > 
  > Reynolds
  > 
  > As you said the price has increased. The original $33,000 didn't
  > include sails or rigging, so the number was deceivingly low even 
  at the
  > time. The finished boat with a trailer was closer to $70,000 to
  > $90,000. But now they are closer to $140,000. That's a lot of 
  money
  > for a boat without a double berth or standing room.
  > 
  > That's also probably the price of a custom-built Harry. The 
  Harry as
  > two double bunks, standing headroom, an enclosed head, a stand-up
  > galley, and a rig that is easily single-handed at maximum sail 
  area. 
  > The r33 has four pipe-berths, only sitting headroom, no real 
  galley, and
  > a rig that requires winches (and furling for the reacher) on every
  > tack. The Harry also has a longer waterline, better righting 
  moment
  > with respect to the sail area, a protected cockpit with a hard 
  deck, and
  > the advantage of not risking rig collapse due to the failure of 
  dozens
  > of little components used in stayed rigs.
  > 
  > One note: don't compare the boats on length alone -- it's price 
  and
  > performance that matter when looking at a proa. It will always be
  > longer than equivalent boats with the same interior volume. The
  > question to ask is: what does it cost on another multihull to sail 
  two
  > double berths in separate areas, with a standing galley, at the 
  speed of
  > a Harry? That's the question.
  > 
  > Wharram
  > 
  > The only 40 foot Wharram I've seen for $35k is a 1982 model. I 
  simply
  > don't have much faith that a 25-year-old homebuilt plywood boat 
  will do
  > what I want it to do. Pro built, and well-maintained? Perhaps. 
  But
  > while I count myself as a Wharram enthusiast, I'll be the first to 
  admit
  > that there are a lot of Wharrams out there that have not been 
  built and
  > maintained to professional standards.
  > 
  > Your Pahi 63 is an interesting comparison. You simply won't 
  find more
  > boat for the money than the 63. If you want acres of deck space,
  > low-windage standing room, and the ability to take eight people 
  out for
  > a weeks at a time, it's hard to beat. But the 63 is an 8000kg 
  beast
  > that's never going to be demounted and transported to low-cost 
  storage
  > or new locations, has a lower sail area to displacement ratio than 
  a
  > Visionarry, and is highly unlikely to be easily single-handed. 
  It's
  > just in a different class.
  > 
  > If you want a closer comparison, it might be a Tiki 38, which 
  has two
  > double berths and two singles. The Tiki will cost a bit less to 
  build
  > than the Visionarry, but will not have nearly the same performance
  > characteristics, nor will it be as easily demounted -- there's a 
  lot of
  > rigging to play with on a Schooner-rigged 38. More deck room and
  > interior space than a harryproa, but again, far from a raceboat.
  > 
  > Farrier F36
  > 
  > The demountable F36 is probably the most appropriate boat to 
  which to
  > compare a Visionarry. It is a demountable multihull with good
  > performance, standing headroom, a full galley, and two double 
  berths in
  > separate areas. Apples to apples. One one hand it has a saloon 
  table
  > which Visionarry Sport does not (though Visionarry Cruiser does), 
  on the
  > other, the Visionarry has a a much larger and more protected 
  cockpit, as
  > well as more deck space. 
  > 
  > The Visionarry will have the benefit of another 4m of waterline
  > length, better righting moment, an empty SA/D of 47 compared to the
  > Farrier's empty SA/D of 38, can be single-handed much more easily,
  > doesn't have the failure risk and rig stress of a stayed mast, and 
  costs
  > about $50,000 less to build than the $259,000 F36 I've seen 
  advertised
  > on the net.
  > 
  > The F36 is still a great boat, and some will prefer it, but in 
  terms
  > of performance and accommodation per dollar spent, the Visionarry 
  comes
  > out on top.
  > 
  > ---
  > 
  > As with all boat comparisons, it comes down to what you want to 
  do
  > with the boat. If you want to cruise, or race, for the lowest 
  price for
  > real performance with separate double berths, the harryproas are 
  very
  > strong choices. If you want something else, then they aren't as
  > attractive. I'd look to performance multihulls like the Farriers 
  and
  > Corsairs for comparisons, though, since the Wharrams really are in 
  an
  > entirely different category.
  > 
  > - Mike
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Todd wrote:
  > >
  > >
  > > Hello Rob,
  > >
  > > On your 12 and 15 meter boats and the why you have in the past
  > > desribe the build process and minimal materials used in the
  > > construction with almost no high $ hardware and rigging to sail 
  the
  > > craft they would be alot less coastly than what I have seen so 
  far.
  > > Other wise whats the point? Minimum this and minimum that with 
  the
  > > same performance as a cat with less space at the almost the same
  > > price. I believe shunters should blow away most production cats 
  and
  > > tris at 1/10 the cost at any length. Reynolds has a cat at first 
  run
  > > they were around 33 now 133$ maybe even more now , wow...
  > >
  > > Not really intrested in the 7 meter performance boat but with the
  > > sail area to weight i'd expect A class cat performance but maybe 
  i
  > > got the weight wrong.
  > >
  > > As far as proffesoinal built traditional shunters. There's just 
  no
  > > market for them yet. Maybe there will be when you smash the 
  record
  > > in the transpac race. whoo hoooooo:)
  > >
  > > If a single dominate leeward hull shunter can't do aleast 1 to 1 
  1/2
  > > times the wind speed when its windy enough to sail above 10 
  knots,
  > > then why bother. Unless your just into having the most unique 
  craft
  > > in the harbor with the least amount of room for the most coast 
  per
  > > length of hull with minimum amount of equipment and hardware.
  > >
  > > Just seen a wharram 40' on yacht world for 35$ a 52 for 105$us 
  and a
  > > 63' for 200$us. Granted probably with the performace of a
  > > cuiser/race mono hull of same length but with a lot more space 
  and
  > > equipment/hardware required to sail the craft.
  > >
  > > Todd
  > >
  > > - In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
  > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>, "Rob Denney" <proa@> 
  wrote:
  > > >
  > > > G'day,
  > > >
  > > > I have yet to see a professionally built "traditional design,
  > > shunting outrigger canoe" (tdsoc)with 2 double bunks, sheltered
  > > cockpit, showroom finish and hot and cold running water. I 
  suspect
  > > that if you paid someone to build you one it would cost a lot 
  more
  > > than a Harry.
  > > >
  > > > If you are referring to Elementarry, the same applies, although
  > > the specs are different. The one for sale is a performance 
  version
  > > and performs as well as a traditional Tornado, is immaculately 
  built
  > > and finished and has a telescoping trailer and a 3 hp outboard. 
  It
  > > is for sale for $Aus16,000/$US12,000 (the owner wants a bigger
  > > harry). A Tornado to similar spec would cost more than double
  > > this. Even a mass produced Hobie 16 (slower, heavier, far more
  > > complex) costs more than this. To compare performance with a 
  tdsoc,
  > > I would need to see some performance figures upwind and down as 
  well
  > > as on a reach. Rather than 'best guesses', these figures should 
  be
  > > comparisons from sailing against known race boats. To compare 
  price
  > > with a tdsoc, we need to find a professionally built tdsoc on a
  > > trailer, with an outboard.
  > > >
  > > > If you compare apples with apples, I think you will find the
  > > harrys are indeed cheaper than tdsoc. In fact, I suspect that the
  > > reason there are not more pro built tdsoc's is because a) they 
  are
  > > too expensive and b) they do not perform well enough. I may be
  > > wrong here, would welcome any information on professionally built
  > > trad designed shunters, or why there are not more of them. You 
  may
  > > like to check on the proa_file chFrom - Tue Mar 06 06:43:06 2007
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Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:23:43 +0800
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section - REDO masts.
Reply-To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
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G'day,

The "correct taper", would have the mast the same percentage of the sail all the way to the top.  However, I think it makes very little difference, so going to 50% will be fine.  

regards,

Rob
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Doug Haines 
  To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au 
  Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section - REDO masts.


  HI to You and Rob and all,

  I want to do the masts again. This time a mold for a solid carbon wing. 
  Although it is harder, I still want to taper it. I noticed that You asked about how much taper in this email. I scaled down the section using PaintBox program to give the sections from full 300mm length to half that at the top. Is this a good tapering?

  Doug



  Rob Denney <proa@iinet.net.au> wrote:

    G'day,

    Thanks Youri, the Clarke 5 is a good choice.

    regards,

    rob
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Myriam & Youri 
      To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au 
      Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:36 PM
      Subject: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section


      Doug,

      If you are going to make a wingmast we can send you a drawing of a 300 mm chord Clark Y for you to print and use as a template for your mast section.
      Would you taper the mast along its length ? Tell uss how much ?

      Best regards,

      Myriam & Youri
      Wangka bvba
      Belgium

      Web. www.wangkaboats.eu


      -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
      Van: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] Namens doha720
      Verzonden: woensdag 28 juni 2006 13:34
      Aan: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
      Onderwerp: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

      Hi,

      I want to find something on the internet that shows a mast section so 
      that I can print it and scale it to form the molds. 
      Rob mentioned something about length 3 x width.
      I found something one time and made rudders and fins on some site. 

      Ta 
      Doug



       

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<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">G'day,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">The "correct taper", would have the mast the same 
percentage of the sail all the way to the top.&nbsp; However, I think it makes 
very little difference, so going to 50% will be fine.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"><BR>Rob</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title="doha720@yahoo.co.uk" href="mailto:doha720@yahoo.co.uk">Doug Haines</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>To:</B> <A title="harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au" href="mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au">harryproa@yahoogrou<wbr>ps.com.au</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:36 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [harryproa] Help drawing the 
  mast section - REDO masts.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV id="ygrp-text">
  <P>HI to You and Rob and all,<BR><BR>I want to do the masts again. This time a 
  mold for a solid carbon wing. <BR>Although it is harder, I still want to taper 
  it. I noticed that You asked about how much taper in this email. I scaled down 
  the section using PaintBox program to give the sections from full 300mm length 
  to half that at the top. Is this a good 
  tapering?<BR><BR>Doug<BR><BR><BR><BR><B><I>Rob Denney 
  &lt;proa@iinet.net.<WBR>au&gt;</I></B> wrote:
  <BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;"><!--[if !mso]>
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    <DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">G'day,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Thanks Youri, the Clarke 5 is a good 
    choice.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">regards,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">rob</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid;">
      <DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;">----- 
      Original Message ----- </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>From:</B> 
      <A title="wangka@skynet.be" href="mailto:wangka@skynet.be">Myriam &amp; 
      Youri</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>To:</B> 
      <A title="harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au" href="mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au">harryproa@yahoogrou<WBR>ps.com.au</A> 
      </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>Sent:</B> 
      Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:36 PM</DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>Subject:</B> 
      RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV class="Section1">
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="SpellE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Doug</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">If you are going 
      to make a <SPAN class="SpellE">wingmast</SPAN> we can send you a drawing of 
      a 300 mm chord Clark Y for you to print and use as a template for your 
      mast section.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Would you taper 
      the mast along its <SPAN class="GramE">length ?</SPAN> Tell <SPAN class="SpellE">uss</SPAN> how <SPAN class="GramE">much 
      ?</SPAN><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Best 
      regards,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;" lag="EN-GB"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="SpellE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Myriam</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"> &amp; 
      Youri<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="SpellE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Wangka</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"> <SPAN class="SpellE">bvba</SPAN><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><ST1><ST1><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Belgium</SPAN></FONT></ST1></ST1><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="GramE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Web.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"> <A href="http://www.wangkaboats.eu">www.wangkaboats.<WBR>eu</A><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN clas="GramE"><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2"><SPAN lang="NL" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma;">-----Oorspronkelijk</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2"><SPAN lang="NL" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma;"> bericht-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Van:</SPAN></B> 
      harryproa@yahoogrou<WBR>ps.com.au 
      [mailto:harryproa@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com.au] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Namens </SPAN></B>doha720<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Verzonden:</SPAN></B> woensdag 28 juni 2006 
      13:34<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Aan:</SPAN></B> 
      harryproa@yahoogrou<WBR>ps.com.au<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Onderwerp:</SPAN></B> [harryproa] Help drawing 
      the mast section</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size="3"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size="3"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;">Hi,<BR><BR>I want to find something on the <SPAN class="GramE">internet</SPAN> that shows a mast section so <BR>that I can 
      print it and scale it to form the molds. <BR>Rob mentioned something about 
      length 3 x width.<BR>I found something one time and made rudders and <SPAN class="GramE">fins</SPAN> on some site. <BR><BR>Ta 
      <BR>Doug<BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT color="white"><SPAN style="COLOR: white;"><SPAN width="1">__._<SPAN class="GramE">,_.</SPAN>___</SPAN></SPAN></FONT> __<SPAN class="GramE">,_.</SPAN>_<SPAN class="GramE">,___</SPAN></SPAN></FONT> 
      <O></O></DIV></DIV><SPAN style="COLOR: white;" width="1"></SPAN>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <HR>

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      5/1/2006<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="COLOR: white;" width="1"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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