G'day,
Well said!
regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Todd
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:05 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Aerodynamics and sailing performance
Hello Mike,
Thanks for your time and effort of your take on the comparison.
To me the comparison and what I believe single outrigger shunters
are your last paragraph sums it up. Single dominate hull shunters
are in a new class by them selfs with as good or better performance
than most of the off the shelf cats and tris on the market today.
Knowing that at any length wind speed or better can be achieved with
the least amount of equipment, least amount of weight, least amount
of sail, least amount of stress and strain on hull and float. Mybe
thats why as Rob said some builders/ designers have stopped
answering on price. It would be a shame for proffesional builders
getting beat on the water and in their pocket books on a craft that
can do it better at 1/10th the coast and 1/10th the materials. Are
they realizing the market of a craft once made from pile of
vegetation built with a keen sense of how nature works that sailed
circles around other craft of thier day and into the future.
On production line boats I'd never own one are you kidding me talk
about least of this an that, and the use of materials not really
designed for the water... polyester resin come on.
So now they charge for performance of the craft A sad spiral down
the tubes for proas.
Todd
--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
wrote:
>
> Todd,
>
> It's nice to see some boats for comparison. The Reynolds and
Wharram
> are both great boats at what they do, but aren't really great at
what
> the harryproas do. I'll write up a quick comparison, and will also
> include a Farrier F36, which is probably the closest thing in
terms of
> apples and oranges.
>
> Reynolds
>
> As you said the price has increased. The original $33,000 didn't
> include sails or rigging, so the number was deceivingly low even
at the
> time. The finished boat with a trailer was closer to $70,000 to
> $90,000. But now they are closer to $140,000. That's a lot of
money
> for a boat without a double berth or standing room.
>
> That's also probably the price of a custom-built Harry. The
Harry as
> two double bunks, standing headroom, an enclosed head, a stand-up
> galley, and a rig that is easily single-handed at maximum sail
area.
> The r33 has four pipe-berths, only sitting headroom, no real
galley, and
> a rig that requires winches (and furling for the reacher) on every
> tack. The Harry also has a longer waterline, better righting
moment
> with respect to the sail area, a protected cockpit with a hard
deck, and
> the advantage of not risking rig collapse due to the failure of
dozens
> of little components used in stayed rigs.
>
> One note: don't compare the boats on length alone -- it's price
and
> performance that matter when looking at a proa. It will always be
> longer than equivalent boats with the same interior volume. The
> question to ask is: what does it cost on another multihull to sail
two
> double berths in separate areas, with a standing galley, at the
speed of
> a Harry? That's the question.
>
> Wharram
>
> The only 40 foot Wharram I've seen for $35k is a 1982 model. I
simply
> don't have much faith that a 25-year-old homebuilt plywood boat
will do
> what I want it to do. Pro built, and well-maintained? Perhaps.
But
> while I count myself as a Wharram enthusiast, I'll be the first to
admit
> that there are a lot of Wharrams out there that have not been
built and
> maintained to professional standards.
>
> Your Pahi 63 is an interesting comparison. You simply won't
find more
> boat for the money than the 63. If you want acres of deck space,
> low-windage standing room, and the ability to take eight people
out for
> a weeks at a time, it's hard to beat. But the 63 is an 8000kg
beast
> that's never going to be demounted and transported to low-cost
storage
> or new locations, has a lower sail area to displacement ratio than
a
> Visionarry, and is highly unlikely to be easily single-handed.
It's
> just in a different class.
>
> If you want a closer comparison, it might be a Tiki 38, which
has two
> double berths and two singles. The Tiki will cost a bit less to
build
> than the Visionarry, but will not have nearly the same performance
> characteristics, nor will it be as easily demounted -- there's a
lot of
> rigging to play with on a Schooner-rigged 38. More deck room and
> interior space than a harryproa, but again, far from a raceboat.
>
> Farrier F36
>
> The demountable F36 is probably the most appropriate boat to
which to
> compare a Visionarry. It is a demountable multihull with good
> performance, standing headroom, a full galley, and two double
berths in
> separate areas. Apples to apples. One one hand it has a saloon
table
> which Visionarry Sport does not (though Visionarry Cruiser does),
on the
> other, the Visionarry has a a much larger and more protected
cockpit, as
> well as more deck space.
>
> The Visionarry will have the benefit of another 4m of waterline
> length, better righting moment, an empty SA/D of 47 compared to the
> Farrier's empty SA/D of 38, can be single-handed much more easily,
> doesn't have the failure risk and rig stress of a stayed mast, and
costs
> about $50,000 less to build than the $259,000 F36 I've seen
advertised
> on the net.
>
> The F36 is still a great boat, and some will prefer it, but in
terms
> of performance and accommodation per dollar spent, the Visionarry
comes
> out on top.
>
> ---
>
> As with all boat comparisons, it comes down to what you want to
do
> with the boat. If you want to cruise, or race, for the lowest
price for
> real performance with separate double berths, the harryproas are
very
> strong choices. If you want something else, then they aren't as
> attractive. I'd look to performance multihulls like the Farriers
and
> Corsairs for comparisons, though, since the Wharrams really are in
an
> entirely different category.
>
> - Mike
>
>
>
>
> Todd wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello Rob,
> >
> > On your 12 and 15 meter boats and the why you have in the past
> > desribe the build process and minimal materials used in the
> > construction with almost no high $ hardware and rigging to sail
the
> > craft they would be alot less coastly than what I have seen so
far.
> > Other wise whats the point? Minimum this and minimum that with
the
> > same performance as a cat with less space at the almost the same
> > price. I believe shunters should blow away most production cats
and
> > tris at 1/10 the cost at any length. Reynolds has a cat at first
run
> > they were around 33 now 133$ maybe even more now , wow...
> >
> > Not really intrested in the 7 meter performance boat but with the
> > sail area to weight i'd expect A class cat performance but maybe
i
> > got the weight wrong.
> >
> > As far as proffesoinal built traditional shunters. There's just
no
> > market for them yet. Maybe there will be when you smash the
record
> > in the transpac race. whoo hoooooo:)
> >
> > If a single dominate leeward hull shunter can't do aleast 1 to 1
1/2
> > times the wind speed when its windy enough to sail above 10
knots,
> > then why bother. Unless your just into having the most unique
craft
> > in the harbor with the least amount of room for the most coast
per
> > length of hull with minimum amount of equipment and hardware.
> >
> > Just seen a wharram 40' on yacht world for 35$ a 52 for 105$us
and a
> > 63' for 200$us. Granted probably with the performace of a
> > cuiser/race mono hull of same length but with a lot more space
and
> > equipment/hardware required to sail the craft.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > - In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>, "Rob Denney" <proa@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > G'day,
> > >
> > > I have yet to see a professionally built "traditional design,
> > shunting outrigger canoe" (tdsoc)with 2 double bunks, sheltered
> > cockpit, showroom finish and hot and cold running water. I
suspect
> > that if you paid someone to build you one it would cost a lot
more
> > than a Harry.
> > >
> > > If you are referring to Elementarry, the same applies, although
> > the specs are different. The one for sale is a performance
version
> > and performs as well as a traditional Tornado, is immaculately
built
> > and finished and has a telescoping trailer and a 3 hp outboard.
It
> > is for sale for $Aus16,000/$US12,000 (the owner wants a bigger
> > harry). A Tornado to similar spec would cost more than double
> > this. Even a mass produced Hobie 16 (slower, heavier, far more
> > complex) costs more than this. To compare performance with a
tdsoc,
> > I would need to see some performance figures upwind and down as
well
> > as on a reach. Rather than 'best guesses', these figures should
be
> > comparisons from sailing against known race boats. To compare
price
> > with a tdsoc, we need to find a professionally built tdsoc on a
> > trailer, with an outboard.
> > >
> > > If you compare apples with apples, I think you will find the
> > harrys are indeed cheaper than tdsoc. In fact, I suspect that the
> > reason there are not more pro built tdsoc's is because a) they
are
> > too expensive and b) they do not perform well enough. I may be
> > wrong here, would welcome any information on professionally built
> > trad designed shunters, or why there are not more of them. You
may
> > like to check on the proa_file chFrom - Tue Mar 06 06:43:06 2007
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Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:23:43 +0800
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section - REDO masts.
Reply-To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
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G'day,
The "correct taper", would have the mast the same percentage of the sail all the way to the top. However, I think it makes very little difference, so going to 50% will be fine.
regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section - REDO masts.
HI to You and Rob and all,
I want to do the masts again. This time a mold for a solid carbon wing.
Although it is harder, I still want to taper it. I noticed that You asked about how much taper in this email. I scaled down the section using PaintBox program to give the sections from full 300mm length to half that at the top. Is this a good tapering?
Doug
Rob Denney <proa@iinet.net.au> wrote:
G'day,
Thanks Youri, the Clarke 5 is a good choice.
regards,
rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Myriam & Youri
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section
Doug,
If you are going to make a wingmast we can send you a drawing of a 300 mm chord Clark Y for you to print and use as a template for your mast section.
Would you taper the mast along its length ? Tell uss how much ?
Best regards,
Myriam & Youri
Wangka bvba
Belgium
Web. www.wangkaboats.eu
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] Namens doha720
Verzonden: woensdag 28 juni 2006 13:34
Aan: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Onderwerp: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section
Hi,
I want to find something on the internet that shows a mast section so
that I can print it and scale it to form the molds.
Rob mentioned something about length 3 x width.
I found something one time and made rudders and fins on some site.
Ta
Doug
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<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">G'day,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">The "correct taper", would have the mast the same
percentage of the sail all the way to the top. However, I think it makes
very little difference, so going to 50% will be fine. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"><BR>Rob</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid;">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4;FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>From:</B>
<A title="doha720@yahoo.co.uk" href="mailto:doha720@yahoo.co.uk">Doug Haines</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>To:</B> <A title="harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au" href="mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au">harryproa@yahoogrou<wbr>ps.com.au</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:36
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial;"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [harryproa] Help drawing the
mast section - REDO masts.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id="ygrp-text">
<P>HI to You and Rob and all,<BR><BR>I want to do the masts again. This time a
mold for a solid carbon wing. <BR>Although it is harder, I still want to taper
it. I noticed that You asked about how much taper in this email. I scaled down
the section using PaintBox program to give the sections from full 300mm length
to half that at the top. Is this a good
tapering?<BR><BR>Doug<BR><BR><BR><BR><B><I>Rob Denney
<proa@iinet.net.<WBR>au></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid;"><!--[if !mso]>
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<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">G'day,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Thanks Youri, the Clarke 5 is a good
choice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">rob</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid;">
<DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>From:</B>
<A title="wangka@skynet.be" href="mailto:wangka@skynet.be">Myriam &
Youri</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>To:</B>
<A title="harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au" href="mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au">harryproa@yahoogrou<WBR>ps.com.au</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:36 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal;FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-STYLE: normal;FONT-FAMILY: arial;FONT-VARIANT: normal;font-size-adjust: none;font-stretch: normal;"><B>Subject:</B>
RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class="Section1">
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="SpellE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Doug</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">If you are going
to make a <SPAN class="SpellE">wingmast</SPAN> we can send you a drawing of
a 300 mm chord Clark Y for you to print and use as a template for your
mast section.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Would you taper
the mast along its <SPAN class="GramE">length ?</SPAN> Tell <SPAN class="SpellE">uss</SPAN> how <SPAN class="GramE">much
?</SPAN><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Best
regards,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;" lag="EN-GB"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="SpellE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Myriam</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"> &
Youri<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="SpellE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Wangka</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"> <SPAN class="SpellE">bvba</SPAN><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><ST1><ST1><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Belgium</SPAN></FONT></ST1></ST1><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN class="GramE"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;">Web.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"> <A href="http://www.wangkaboats.eu">www.wangkaboats.<WBR>eu</A><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN lang="EN-GB" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;COLOR: navy;FONT-FAMILY: Arial;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><SPAN clas="GramE"><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2"><SPAN lang="NL" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma;">-----Oorspronkelijk</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2"><SPAN lang="NL" style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma;"> bericht-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Van:</SPAN></B>
harryproa@yahoogrou<WBR>ps.com.au
[mailto:harryproa@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com.au] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Namens </SPAN></B>doha720<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Verzonden:</SPAN></B> woensdag 28 juni 2006
13:34<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Aan:</SPAN></B>
harryproa@yahoogrou<WBR>ps.com.au<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold;">Onderwerp:</SPAN></B> [harryproa] Help drawing
the mast section</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size="3"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class="MsoNormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size="3"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt;">Hi,<BR><BR>I want to find something on the <SPAN class="GramE">internet</SPAN> that shows a mast section so <BR>that I can
print it and scale it to form the molds. <BR>Rob mentioned something about
length 3 x width.<BR>I found something one time and made rudders and <SPAN class="GramE">fins</SPAN> on some site. <BR><BR>Ta
<BR>Doug<BR><BR><BR><BR><FONT color="white"><SPAN style="COLOR: white;"><SPAN width="1">__._<SPAN class="GramE">,_.</SPAN>___</SPAN></SPAN></FONT> __<SPAN class="GramE">,_.</SPAN>_<SPAN class="GramE">,___</SPAN></SPAN></FONT>
<O></O></DIV></DIV><SPAN style="COLOR: white;" width="1"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV></DIV>Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.<BR>Checked by AVG Free
Edition.<BR>Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/328 - Release Date:
5/1/2006<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="COLOR: white;" width="1"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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