Jerry, I copied your post to Derek and got the
following reply. Feel free to answer his questions, but go easy on the
strong language (ie refrain from using or implying "stealing" or similar terms)
or your future posts will be edited by me or Michelle.
The Jerry Dycus name rings a very, very faint bell, which I
could not begin to put into any
context and I have no idea what feature he
is talking about. Stealing is a strong word. He
been dwelling on this one for a long time. - though it seems I may have
unwittingly done him a favor.
I can honestly say that I have always
been in the position of having more ideas of my own I
am seeking the chance
to try, so cannot imagine wanting or needing to steal someone
At the same time, we do not live in a vacuum and
ideas do circulate. You only have to look
how the typical new cat
designs have come to a common style. It can be clients coming
ideas. Some ideas are obvious but if used I still like to give
credit in talking about
them. An example of this is in some of
the prop arrangement in some on our power cats.
The way the
water comes back onto the props is a fairly obvious way, but it is one that was
certainly most widely used by Malcom Tennant. A client of mine came to
me with his
outline drawing of what he wanted, in which this feature was
included and was appropriate -
which I have said to lots of clients.
There are times when ideas do get copied, but where do you start and
finish. An example
which springs to mind - John
Shuttleworth is known for his flaired hull shape on his cats. He
watching the water flow around a flaired hull. That first hull was a
Kelsall tri which
he built before getting into designing. I don't have a
problem. How many others have copied
since? I first used the idea on
the inside only of a cat and on 37 ft, tri., both in 66.
Jerry - working on a flat table 25 years. Wonder where that idea
came from? Bet he uses
By 76, we had a
lot of designs under our belt - one, two and three hulls - including
At 32 foot - we had the Kelly 32 - one of a similar
range. 3-4 built, one in ply.
We did a Suncat 32 - built in
Argentina only. Cannot believe it would be either of these. I
we did one other 32 design of which none got built. Would need
reminding on this
one. Some 200+ different Kelsall designs have flowed
under the bridge since then.
So - Jerry, I am sorry if
something that I did in a design was taken by you as taking an idea
yours. However, I can assure you I was/am not aware of
it. You do not tell us what the
could say I got into design via Arthur Piver. We discussed hull shapes
other things on his visits to Texas while I was building my
first. He was adamant that he had
it absolutely right. My experience
told me otherwise. The evening before the start of the
Britain Race, I was told in strong terms, that I could not design trimarans -
was Pivers province. Clearly, without having sailed Piver
trimarans, there would probably
never have been a Kelsall. Proas -
Dick Newick can rightly claim to have set the pace in
getting the first
modern proa to the water. I cannot imagine that Dick would claim
exclusivity. I know that my interest was sparked by an article in the
Research Society mag (probably mid sixties) - by, I
believe, a New Zealander and a name
that just sticks in my memory along with
the drawing on the front cover - R.S.J. Taylor.
Oh - and as I have said
to you Rob a few times and on the multihull-boatbuilding forum - I
plans to go back to designing proas. Far, far too many of our own ideas
work on. I look forward to Proa discussions though. We
learnt a lot and I have felt that the
arrangement was never fully tested -
before being banned by the Royal Western Yacht Club
from their races.
Too many capsizes while solo sailing - of which I contributed one. - I will
add my little tit bit. It was offshore, in the N. Sea and I was picked
up by another proa!!
There are a considerable number of boat
builders using flat panels from a table. ( Lots of
tables have been built in
NZ and Australia since I came to NZ). However, KSS is a lot
than this. I could write a book on the step by step process we have
since building that first full size table in 1973.
When resin infusion came in, it started a
whole new line of
refinements. It is rare for a workshop not to produce something new.
may be relatively minor but it all goes into the KSS pot.
I should also state - no I did not invent foam sandwich. It was my
boats which put foam
onto the map. The how was entirely my own
work. No, I did not invent resin infusion.
have developed and refined the process out of all recognition to where we
started. This has been directed for the way in which we use it.
KSS addresses almost every task in boat building, where we can always
equivalent of any other design.
And Jerry - let me have
your address. I will send you a video. You really should give resin
infusion a try. For work on a table, I do not believe you would ever want to
go back. It
changes the whole process. True there are times when
you wonder at the set up time.
However, once the resin taps are open
and the whole full foam sandwich panel is infused
half an hour later, there
are no doubts whatsoever that it was all worth while and a lot
any panel of any size. The hand laminating was the part I never
to in the workshops. Now, it is all fun.
On time, resin infusion is not efficient for small solid glass
panels. It is setting out all of the
glass and foam dry and then
infusing in one, which pays.
Stealing in design would be to take
something that is clearly known as the work of one
where that designer has produced the orginal novel idea and put a lot
effort into prefecting and promoting it. The Farrier Folding system is
such. When it
comes to styles or layouts it becomes a very grey
area. It is not that unusual either to find
have arrived at the same idea at the same time. ie the time was right for
idea to come to the fore.
KSS belongs to Kelsall
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:47
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Easy
boatbuilding, Re: Attention australian builders
Hi Rob and All,
> Rob Denney wrote:
> > G'day,
> > Most builders have read about the Kelsall KSS
> > http://www.kelsall.com/methods4.html
> building boats and
> > wondered if it is really
possible to build hulls
> this quickly. If
> > they are, it
makes a mockery of spending weeks
> gluing, glassing,
bogging and sanding strips of wood or foam in the
> > plank method, or any of the heat it, bend it and
screw it foam techniques.
The short answer is yes, they can be
that fast!! Not only that, but I've built them that
I've been building flat panel FG boats off of
for 25 yrs.
How I became a multihull designer was when
asking for advice
back in 76? of Kelsell when he stole
the design ideas and showed up 3
months later in
Multihulls Magazine as the Kelsall 32 Cat ;^D.
your designs, ideas to show up in his plans soon I'd
At that point I understood if I was good
enough to steal from, then
I could design my own and
did, building over 400 boats, about 40 multihulls
6 tacking proas in all masterials. Not that I minded
from by a big designer as it's was a kind
Why would you
build a Harryproa or any
sellable boat one off and not take a FG mold off
FG molds don't cost that much and very easy to do.
It's the plug
that takes the work.
Then everyone after would be able to have a
class FG one would seem to be a smart business
It takes me less
than 8-10 man-hrs to build a
40'/12m hull in FG including all prep. About
to do my composite monococque Electric car
body/chassis I'm now
doing with molds.
Now with Tortured Plywood/epoxy method I can
40' hull in about 10 hr.
I've also built tortured FG by the same way
do plywood/epoxy, making a 32'x7' panels on a flat
mold. This works
fairly well though depends on it
being caught in the right stage of curing,
and 5 days after being laid up depending on temp,
Composite masts can be built that way
While I love strip plank,
I'd never build one
that way because it's too much work and cost.
resin infusion is probably too much work.
Not the actual infusion, but all
the prep, afterwork,
costs nessasary. Just pour out the resin and
it out, pop on the core, lay up the inside gives just
Being flat so resin doesn't run down is the
key to making it easy to layup
too besides the outside
being finished by the mold.
Welcome to the world
of fast boatbuilding!
It's where the profit is!!
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