Subject: Re: [harryproa] Easy boatbuilding, Re: Attention australian builders
From: "Rob Denney" <>
Date: 4/22/2007, 7:59 AM

Jerry, I copied your post to Derek and got the following reply.  Feel free to answer his questions, but go easy on the strong language (ie refrain from using or implying "stealing" or similar terms) or your future posts will be edited by me or Michelle.  


The Jerry Dycus name rings a very, very faint bell, which I could not begin to put into any
context and I have no idea what feature he is talking about.   Stealing is a strong word.  He
must have been dwelling on this one for a long time. - though it seems I may have
unwittingly done him a favor.

I can honestly say that I have always been in the position of having more ideas of my own I
am seeking the chance to try, so cannot imagine wanting or needing to steal someone

At the same time, we do not live in a vacuum and ideas do circulate.  You only have to look
how the typical new cat designs have come to a common style.  It can be clients coming
with ideas.   Some ideas are obvious but if used I still like to give credit in talking about
them.  An example of this is in some of the  prop arrangement in some on our power cats. 
The way the water comes back onto the props is a fairly obvious way, but it is one that was
certainly most widely used by Malcom Tennant.  A client of mine came to me with his
outline drawing of what he wanted, in which this feature was included and was appropriate -
which I have said to lots of clients. 

There are times when ideas do get copied, but where do you start and finish.   An example
which springs to mind  - John Shuttleworth is known for his flaired hull shape on his cats. He
talked of watching the water flow around a flaired hull.  That first hull was a Kelsall tri which
he built before getting into designing. I don't have a problem. How many others have copied
since?  I first used the idea on the inside only of a cat and on 37 ft, tri., both in 66.  

Jerry - working on a flat table 25 years.  Wonder where that idea came from?  Bet he uses
foam too.  

By 76, we had a lot of designs under our belt - one, two and three hulls - including Proas.

At 32 foot - we had the Kelly 32 - one of a similar range.   3-4 built, one in ply.
We did a Suncat 32 - built in Argentina only. Cannot believe it would be either of these.  I
believe we did one other 32 design of which none got built.   Would need reminding on this
one.  Some 200+ different Kelsall designs have flowed under the bridge since then.  

So - Jerry, I am sorry if something that I did in a design was taken by you as taking an idea
of yours.   However, I can assure you I was/am not aware of it.   You do not tell us what the
feature was.

Likewise, I could say I got into design via Arthur Piver.  We discussed hull shapes amongst
other things on his visits to Texas while I was building my first.  He was adamant that he had
it absolutely right. My experience told me otherwise.  The evening before the start of the
1966 Round Britain Race, I was told in strong terms, that I could not design trimarans - that
was Pivers province.   Clearly, without having sailed Piver trimarans, there would probably
never have been a Kelsall.  Proas - Dick Newick can rightly claim to have set the pace in
getting the first modern proa to the water.  I cannot imagine that Dick would claim
exclusivity.  I know that my interest was sparked by an article in the Amateur Yachting
Research Society mag (probably mid sixties) - by, I believe, a New Zealander and a name
that just sticks in my memory along with the drawing on the front cover - R.S.J. Taylor.

Oh - and as I have said to you Rob a few times and on the multihull-boatbuilding forum - I
have no plans to go back to designing proas.  Far, far too many of our own ideas still to
work on.  I look forward to Proa discussions though.  We learnt a lot and I have felt that the
arrangement was never fully tested - before being banned by the Royal Western Yacht Club
from their races.  Too many capsizes while solo sailing - of which I contributed one. - I will
add my little tit bit.  It was offshore, in the N. Sea and I was picked up by another proa!! 

There are a considerable number of boat builders using flat panels from a table. ( Lots of
tables have been built in NZ and Australia since I came to NZ).   However, KSS is a lot
more than this.   I could write a book on the step by step process we have gone through
since building that first full size table in 1973.   When resin infusion came in, it started a
whole new line of refinements.  It is rare for a workshop not to produce something new.  It
may be relatively minor but it all goes into the KSS pot.  

I should also state - no I did not invent foam sandwich.  It was my boats which put foam
onto the map.  The how was entirely my own work.  No, I did not invent resin infusion.  
However, we have developed and refined the process out of all recognition to where we
started.   This has been directed for the way in which we use it.

KSS addresses almost every task in boat building, where we can always produce the
equivalent of any other design.

And Jerry - let me have your address.  I will send you a video.  You really should give resin
infusion a try. For work on a table, I do not believe you would ever want to go back.  It
changes the whole process.  True there are times when you wonder at the set up time. 
However, once the resin taps are open and the whole full foam sandwich panel is infused
half an hour later, there are no doubts whatsoever that it was all worth while and a lot
quicker for any panel of any size.   The hand laminating was the part I never looked forward
to in the workshops.  Now, it is all fun. 

On time, resin infusion is not efficient for small solid glass panels.   It is setting out all of the
glass and foam dry and then infusing in one, which pays.

Stealing in design would be to take something that is clearly known as the work of one
designer, particularly where that designer has produced the orginal novel idea and put a lot
of effort into prefecting and promoting it.  The Farrier Folding system is such.  When it
comes to styles or layouts it becomes a very grey area.    It is not that unusual either to find
two designers have arrived at the same idea at the same time.  ie the time was right for that
idea to come to the fore.  

KSS belongs to Kelsall Catamarans.  

Best wishes,

----- Original Message -----
From: jerry freedomev
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Easy boatbuilding, Re: Attention australian builders

Hi Rob and All,

> Rob Denney wrote:
> > G'day,
> >
>> >
> > Most builders have read about the Kelsall KSS
> technique
> >
> > <> for rapidly
> building boats and
> > wondered if it is really possible to build hulls
> this quickly. If
> > they are, it makes a mockery of spending weeks
> gluing, glassing,
> > bogging and sanding strips of wood or foam in the
> traditional strip
> > plank method, or any of the heat it, bend it and
> screw it foam techniques.

The short answer is yes, they can be built
that fast!! Not only that, but I've built them that
way to 80'/25m.
I've been building flat panel FG boats off of
table/flat molds for 25 yrs.
How I became a multihull designer was when
asking for advice back in 76? of Kelsell when he stole
the design ideas and showed up 3 months later in
Multihulls Magazine as the Kelsall 32 Cat ;^D. Expect
your designs, ideas to show up in his plans soon I'd
bet as his!
At that point I understood if I was good
enough to steal from, then I could design my own and
did, building over 400 boats, about 40 multihulls and
6 tacking proas in all masterials. Not that I minded
being stolen from by a big designer as it's was a kind
of compliment!
Why would you build a Harryproa or any
sellable boat one off and not take a FG mold off it?
FG molds don't cost that much and very easy to do.
It's the plug that takes the work.
Then everyone after would be able to have a
first class FG one would seem to be a smart business
It takes me less than 8-10 man-hrs to build a
40'/12m hull in FG including all prep. About the same
to do my composite monococque Electric car
body/chassis I'm now doing with molds.
Now with Tortured Plywood/epoxy method I can
build a 40' hull in about 10 hr.
I've also built tortured FG by the same way I
do plywood/epoxy, making a 32'x7' panels on a flat
mold. This works fairly well though depends on it
being caught in the right stage of curing, between 1
and 5 days after being laid up depending on temp,
resin used. Composite masts can be built that way
While I love strip plank, I'd never build one
that way because it's too much work and cost.
His resin infusion is probably too much work.
Not the actual infusion, but all the prep, afterwork,
costs nessasary. Just pour out the resin and squeegee
it out, pop on the core, lay up the inside gives just
as good. Being flat so resin doesn't run down is the
key to making it easy to layup too besides the outside
being finished by the mold.
Welcome to the world of fast boatbuilding!
It's where the profit is!!
Jerry Dycus


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