On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 12:08 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@networknow.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I got the renderings of the charter version. In that message, you
> mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
> liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in mind. The
> Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct?
Yes.
Because the payload
> capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although I have
> not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and fridge/freezer. If
> there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
> travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a 2000lb
> payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.
>
> Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
> version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many guests,
> 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the schooner
> rig concerns me for that.
The schooner rig is harder to control than the ballestron (2 highly
loaded sheets vs one lightly loaded) and is a bit heavier and more
expensive. However, it is less hassle to hoist and trim sails, and at
least until you have some experience, it is much easier to shunt. It
also opens up the lee hull, which is why the charter boat has it.
>
> Back to general questions:
>
> Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed when
> shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a larger
> version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
> switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around to the
> otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about motorsailing? I
> know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal on the
> east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail, interspersed
> with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always liked to
> keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
The rudders on the hull require two wheels which need switching
(simple pin in the boss of the wheel). The rudders on the beams only
one, unless you want to use them for crabbing off a marina wall, in
which case two. With liftable electric motors on the rudders, this
won't be necessary . To shunt, you release the current sheet(s) and
trim on the new one by hand a little. The boat stops. Rotate the
rudders, pull on the sheet(s) and sail away. The pulling iof the new
sheets is pretty easy as the boat is luffing. Only the last few feet
has any load on it. With a schooner, you trim the new fore sail
first, to about the angle of a jib (say 10% off fore and aft) then the
aft sail is pulled into the centreline. The schooner has rigid booms
so the sheet loads are far less than booms with goosenecks. the sheet
is only pulling the sail in, not down.
>
> I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the mast
> rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up around
> the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each direction you
> sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
A boom sheet for each direction, all other lines stay on the mast or boom.
>
> Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer questions.
> I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never took
> them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
No sweat.
Regards,
Rob
>
> - Gardner
>
> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...
> >
> > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
> > > my questions into context.
> >
> > snip
> > >
> > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
> > > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
> > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
> > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
> > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
> > >
> > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
> > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
> > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> >
> > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
> > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom rudders etc.
> > >
> > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
> > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
> really
> > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
> > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
> > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
> out of
> > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> >
> > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job. The table
> > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the dimensions.
> > >
> > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
> > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
> > > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
> > > additions.
> >
> > No problem.
> > >
> > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
> > > galley, where do you put everything?
> >
> > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
> > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
> > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard. This is a
> > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
> > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
> > readily accessible. There are layout options to increase the storage
> > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
> > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
> > >
> > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
> > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
> > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
> > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
> >
> > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out. The
> > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
> > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour location. The fit
> > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker. The
> > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
> > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
> > space, better light and ventilation and at the same level as the
> > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > >
> > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
> > > willing to, my email is gardner@...
> >
> > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are not of
> > particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
> > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will be on the
> > web page real soon now ........
> > >
> > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
> > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
> how it
> > > went.
> >
> > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
> > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
> > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
> > >
> > > - What is the mast height off the water?
> >
> > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
> little lower.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Rob
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > > >
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
> little hard
> > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it
> might be
> > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
> too long
> > > > > for anyone to read).
> > > > >
> > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
> > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
> alot of sea
> > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
> required?
> > > >
> > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> epoxy/graphite
> > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
> > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
> > > > would be done to the mast.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any
> safety
> > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
> in heavy
> > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > >
> > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
> > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then.
> Or are
> > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
> > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
> sail and
> > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
> > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
> > > more?
> > > >
> > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
> > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get
> hit by
> > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> athwartships,
> > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
> weathervane,
> > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
> sheeted fore
> > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
> wrong way
> > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
> > > that
> > > > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > >
> > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> professionally.
> > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
> > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
> > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has
> sailed
> > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
> estimate,
> > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
> > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
> > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
> > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
> > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
> mast can
> > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
> > > endlessly?
> > > >
> > > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not
> worth
> > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
> Amongst
> > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
> > > > current designs has stays.
> > > > >
> > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind
> sail?
> > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > >
> > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the
> boom
> > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back
> end of
> > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
> > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
> when the
> > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
> > > (the
> > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed
> under
> > > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea
> states?
> > > >
> > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > > http://www.youtube.
> reaches at
> > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no
> one is
> > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
> lighter,
> > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water
> in a
> > > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.
> There
> > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > > http://www.zeilenme
> > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
> moment.
> > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
> it blows
> > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
> compared
> > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> > > > >
> > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
> > > >
> > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
> lifts to
> > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
> > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
> > > boat.
> > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
> AU) and
> > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
> > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
> Assuming I am
> > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
> can I jst
> > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number?
> What
> > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > >
> > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> > > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
> > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
> > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
> issues to
> > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
> > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
> > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will
> be far
> > > > quicker to install.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to
> this, I
> > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > >
> > > > Keep 'em coming!
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rob Denney
> > > > www.harryproa.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Gardner
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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