Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Tons of questions
From: Myriam & Youri <youri@wangkaboats.eu>
Date: 4/1/2008, 12:57 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

Rob,

we can take care of renderings ...

Do you prefer wingmast/stubmast bearings on the foot/deck level or
a fixed stubmast with a wingmast rotating about it ...

Yana is working on the webpages ... you will hear soon about it

Best regards,

Myriam & Youri

On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 11:12 +0800, Rob Denney wrote:
> G'day,
>
> The visibility to windward comes from having the cabin floor lower
> than the rest of the bridgedeck, which means you can stand up on the
> bridgedeck and see over the saloon even though it has full standing
> headroom. There is no slamming as it is always the windward hull.
> The lower roof also reduces windage and gives it a sleeker look from
> the windward side.
>
> The cantilevered roof over the helmsman is the width of the solid
> walkway and is carried all the way to the lee hull. The roof is a
> foot higher than the cabin roof with a windshield on the windward end
> so the helsman is protected, but can see over the hull. At anchor,
> roll down clears make this an extension of the cabin.
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Gardner Pomper
> <gardner@networknow.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > That sounds really exciting. Any chance I can get some sketches or
> > renderings? I am particularly interested on how you keep the windage
> down
> > and still have visibility from the help to windward.
> >
> > - Gardner
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Tim Barker
> <clairebarker5@bigpond.com.au>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "gardner.pomper"
> <gardner@...>
> > > wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
> > > To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is roughly
> 26
> > > x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and
> toilet
> > > will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as possible so as
> to
> > > minimise wastage of full headroom space which still means heaps of
> > > room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a 30ft
> cat
> > > or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat (maybe
> > > slight exageration).
> > > cheers Tim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I am very curious about this design. If you are at all familiar
> with
> > > > the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open
> bridgedeck
> > > > that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason
> you go
> > > > below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks. Instead of an
> > > > enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you
> from the
> > > > weather when you need it, but being completely open most of the
> time.
> > > > I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept down
> because
> > > > you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close
> them for
> > > > rain or heavy seas.
> > > >
> > > > If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and click on
> > > > MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
> > > >
> > > > I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with
> trying to
> > > > figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open
> bridgedeck
> > > > layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the windage,
> but I
> > > > also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
> > > >
> > > > - Gardner
> > > >
> > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Tim Barker"
> <clairebarker5@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "gardner.pomper"
> <gardner@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Gardener
> > > > > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of four
> liveaboard.For us
> > > > > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living
> space for
> > > > > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can
> enclose or
> > > > > make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the
> space
> > > > > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in
> reference to the
> > > > > separation of the sailing/living areas.
> > > > >
> > > > > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was
> for a
> > > > > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space,
> no need
> > > > > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist
> the
> > > > > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.
> > > > >
> > > > > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide
> enough but
> > > > > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was
> tempted to )
> > > > > youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling
> down hill
> > > > > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on
> one
> > > > > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling
> no doors
> > > > > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a
> quicker
> > > > > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
> > > > >
> > > > > Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not
> that
> > > > > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the
> cost of
> > > > > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was
> about
> > > > > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area
> and the
> > > > > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became
> one
> > > > > large living area.
> > > > >
> > > > > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple
> of
> > > > > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of
> people and
> > > > > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations
> continually
> > > > > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that
> message, you
> > > > > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of
> 4
> > > > > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in
> mind. The
> > > > > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the
> payload
> > > > > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although
> I have
> > > > > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
> > > fridge/freezer. If
> > > > > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be
> great. We
> > > > > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a
> 2000lb
> > > > > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with
> us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the
> larger
> > > > > > version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many
> guests,
> > > > > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the
> > > schooner
> > > > > > rig concerns me for that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Back to general questions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be
> performed
> > > when
> > > > > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a
> larger
> > > > > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the
> rudders
> > > > > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk
> around
> > > to the
> > > > > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
> > > motorsailing? I
> > > > > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the
> Intracoastal
> > > on the
> > > > > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail,
> interspersed
> > > > > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have
> always
> > > liked to
> > > > > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With
> the
> > > mast
> > > > > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind
> up
> > > around
> > > > > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each
> direction you
> > > > > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer
> > > questions.
> > > > > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I
> never
> > > took
> > > > > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney"
> <harryproa@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief
> background
> > > > > to put
> > > > > > > > my questions into context.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > snip
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems
> like
> > > > it has
> > > > > > > > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard
> > > > (although
> > > > > > > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking
> for a
> > > > > coastal
> > > > > > > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and
> the
> > > > > caribbean.
> > > > > > > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on
> Visionarry.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty?
> Does it
> > > > > include
> > > > > > > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What
> about the
> > > > > sails?
> > > > > > > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail
> except
> > > > > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom
> > > > rudders etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you
> have
> > > > > any 2D
> > > > > > > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look
> at? We
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I
> am
> > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
> > > > > dropping the
> > > > > > > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a
> simple model
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the
> job. The
> > > > table
> > > > > > > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the
> > > > dimensions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a
> deal
> > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add
> one,
> > > but he
> > > > > > > > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one
> of the
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > additions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the
> hull
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > > galley, where do you put everything?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even
> an
> > > extended
> > > > > > > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but
> it
> > > does
> > > > > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.
> > > This is a
> > > > > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress
> your wife!
> > > > > > > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is
> not
> > > > > > > readily accessible. There are layout options to increase
> the
> > > > storage
> > > > > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all
> the
> > > comforts
> > > > > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better
> bet..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between
> a proa
> > > > > and a
> > > > > > > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
> > > > designed. Are
> > > > > > > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the
> relative
> > > > build
> > > > > > > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter?
> Double?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and
> fit out.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although
> there are
> > > > > > > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour
> location.
> > > > The fit
> > > > > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker.
> The
> > > > > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones
> in the ww
> > > > > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds,
> more floor
> > > > > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the same level
> as the
> > > > > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups.
> If
> > > > you are
> > > > > > > > willing to, my email is gardner@
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are
> not of
> > > > > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion
> purposes
> > > only,
> > > > > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will
> be
> > > on the
> > > > > > > web page real soon now ........
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out
> the
> > > > > boat in
> > > > > > > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in
> Sept as to
> > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > went.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked
> all your
> > > > > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off
> and
> > > sends
> > > > > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report
> back here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - What is the mast height off the water?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig
> so a
> > > > > > little lower.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney"
> <harryproa@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please
> keep
> > > > them
> > > > > > > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper
> <gardner@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can
> find
> > > > on the
> > > > > > > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is
> very
> > > > > > little hard
> > > > > > > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best
> place to
> > > > start.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
> > > although it
> > > > > > might be
> > > > > > > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with
> some
> > > > general
> > > > > > > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post
> would be
> > > > > > too long
> > > > > > > > > > for anyone to read).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How
> susceptible is
> > > > > that to
> > > > > > > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are
> subject to
> > > > > > alot of sea
> > > > > > > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the
> maintenance
> > > > > > required?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> > > > > > epoxy/graphite
> > > > > > > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a
> boot
> > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit)
> did
> > > get in
> > > > > > > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the
> plastic so no
> > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > would be done to the mast.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to
> > > have any
> > > > > > safety
> > > > > > > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need
> to reef
> > > > > > in heavy
> > > > > > > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge
> deck.
> > > > There
> > > > > > > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you
> reef.
> > > > Is it
> > > > > > > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach
> it
> > > then.
> > > > > > Or are
> > > > > > > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
> > > > > "normal" cat?
> > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting
> behind the
> > > > > > sail and
> > > > > > > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull,
> making the
> > > > > boat
> > > > > > > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat
> handling a
> > > > > little
> > > > > > > > more?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and
> release the
> > > > > sheet.
> > > > > > > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful
> not
> > > to get
> > > > > > hit by
> > > > > > > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> > > > > > athwartships,
> > > > > > > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as
> a
> > > > > > weathervane,
> > > > > > > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can
> be
> > > > > > sheeted fore
> > > > > > > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so
> capsizing the
> > > > > > wrong way
> > > > > > > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask
> more
> > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east
> coast of
> > > > > the US
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> > > > > > professionally.
> > > > > > > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat
> for the
> > > > > boats
> > > > > > > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk
> through
> > > > > windward
> > > > > > > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is
> that
> > > it has
> > > > > > sailed
> > > > > > > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I
> > > have. The
> > > > > > > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our
> price
> > > > > > estimate,
> > > > > > > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish
> the
> > > > painting
> > > > > > > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is
> George
> > > > Marks. He
> > > > > > > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
> > > > grateful for
> > > > > > > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the
> boat.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also
> that
> > > > it is
> > > > > > > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast
> still
> > > > > rotate 360
> > > > > > > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how
> far the
> > > > > > mast can
> > > > > > > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same
> > > direction
> > > > > > > > endlessly?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They
> > > are not
> > > > > > worth
> > > > > > > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers
> eiither.
> > > > > > Amongst
> > > > > > > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360
> degrees. None
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > current designs has stays.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of
> > > downwind
> > > > > > sail?
> > > > > > > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the
> front
> > > of the
> > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to
> > > the back
> > > > > > end of
> > > > > > > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type
> sail is
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close
> hauled, even
> > > > > > when the
> > > > > > > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is
> athwartships.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed
> of
> > > > > Blind Date
> > > > > > > > (the
> > > > > > > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing).
> Has a
> > > > polar
> > > > > > > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings
> of
> > > speed
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds
> > > and sea
> > > > > > states?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare
> Bird
> > > > > > reaches at
> > > > > > > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are
> not
> > > right
> > > > > > > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can
> > > see, no
> > > > > > one is
> > > > > > > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is
> considerably
> > > > > > lighter,
> > > > > > > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in
> the
> > > water
> > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming,
> I
> > > hope.
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > > > > > > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate
> that
> > > > > this is
> > > > > > > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have
> at the
> > > > > > moment.
> > > > > > > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the
> harder
> > > > > > it blows
> > > > > > > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will
> perform,
> > > > > > compared
> > > > > > > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
> > > hulls, the
> > > > > > > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa
> > > platform.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and
> Harryproa)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the
> hull
> > > > > > lifts to
> > > > > > > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less
> likely,
> > > > > except
> > > > > > > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the
> time/talent to
> > > > > build a
> > > > > > > > boat.
> > > > > > > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for
> Visionarry ($80K
> > > > > > AU) and
> > > > > > > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate
> into a
> > > > > budgetary
> > > > > > > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this
> boat?
> > > > > > Assuming I am
> > > > > > > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent
> work,
> > > > > > can I jst
> > > > > > > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get
> a
> > > number?
> > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by
> > > Australian
> > > > > > > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very
> > > > expensive
> > > > > > > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am
> currently
> > > > > > > > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa,
> the
> > > > > Caribbean
> > > > > > > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their
> labour
> > > > > rates are
> > > > > > > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be
> quality
> > > > > > issues to
> > > > > > > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build
> to
> > > > > ensure high
> > > > > > > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer
> > > > hours and
> > > > > > > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
> > > interior will
> > > > > > be far
> > > > > > > > > quicker to install.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
> > > replies to
> > > > > > this, I
> > > > > > > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Keep 'em coming!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rob Denney
> > > > > > > > > www.harryproa.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

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