G'day,
Derek reckons he can do any hull shape with KSS, although I think you
will end up with flat decks, but worth an ask. If you are ever down
Waihi way, call him and see if you can drop in and see him and discuss
it.
Thanks for the nice words about the boats. I should point out that
the boat is not a harry, but a Mbuli design from John Harris in the
USA.
regards,
Rob
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 3:14 PM, oceanplodder2003 <dana-tenacity@
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> Reports on my three outings so far with photos and some video here:
>
> http://www.crew.
>
> Interesting drawings, but I'm still sold on Visionarry (I'm assuming
> that can be adapted for KSS?).
> I'm suffering terribly , I want to start building it yesterday, but
> the economy here is going down the gurgler almost as fast as in the
> US. My website is going really well , but my wife has two retail shops
> (women's dresses) and is feeling the pinch.
> In the meantime I've promised younger daughter I'll do a strip plank
> kayak for her this winter, know anything about them?
> Sailing the proa is a revelation. Yes it's fast (not as fast as the
> old A Class cat), but utterly effortless, you'll see in one of the
> photos I'm lying on the tramp with the tiller in my toes, I' have done
> that at 15kn. And I'll never go back to a stayed mast.
> I readily accept that your boats are safer, faster, more comfortable
> and hopefully cheaper than anything else available.
> Cheers
> David
>
>
> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> > Thanks for the rendering offer, I will send you the files.
> >
> > Wing mast bearings on the floor and deck. Lighter, easier to build
> > and you are able to access the bearings. The rig is much stiffer.
> > Needs a collar to keep the water out, but this is no big deal. Only
> > time I would use a stub mast is if it was going on a flat deck or if
> > overall length was an issue for trailering, as yours might be.
> >
> > Looking forward to see what Yana comes up with! Yana is Youri and
> > Myriam's (Wangka boats, builders of the glitziest harryproa ever, a
> > super light, all bells and whistles elementarry) daughter, studying
> > web design and kindly having a look at what can be improved on the web
> > page. I have a web lesson on Friday, so the update is not far away.
> >
> > Jim and Oceanplodder, renderings sent, but i would like to wait until
> > we get the real thing from Youri, and i write some decent blurb before
> > sending it to any web or paper publications. Op, where is the video of
> > your proa sailing?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rob
> >
>
> > On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Myriam & Youri <youri@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob,
> > >
> > > we can take care of renderings ...
> > >
> > > Do you prefer wingmast/stubmast bearings on the foot/deck level or
> > > a fixed stubmast with a wingmast rotating about it ...
> > >
> > > Yana is working on the webpages ... you will hear soon about it
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Myriam & Youri
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 11:12 +0800, Rob Denney wrote:
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > The visibility to windward comes from having the cabin floor lower
> > > > than the rest of the bridgedeck, which means you can stand up
> on the
> > > > bridgedeck and see over the saloon even though it has full standing
> > > > headroom. There is no slamming as it is always the windward hull.
> > > > The lower roof also reduces windage and gives it a sleeker look
> from
> > > > the windward side.
> > > >
> > > > The cantilevered roof over the helmsman is the width of the solid
> > > > walkway and is carried all the way to the lee hull. The roof is a
> > > > foot higher than the cabin roof with a windshield on the
> windward end
> > > > so the helsman is protected, but can see over the hull. At anchor,
> > > > roll down clears make this an extension of the cabin.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Gardner Pomper
> > > > <gardner@...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That sounds really exciting. Any chance I can get some
> sketches or
> > > > > renderings? I am particularly interested on how you keep the
> windage
> > > > down
> > > > > and still have visibility from the help to windward.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Gardner
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Tim Barker
> > > > <clairebarker5@
>
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > > > <gardner@>
> > > > > > wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
> > > > > > To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is
> roughly
> > > > 26
> > > > > > x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and
> > > > toilet
> > > > > > will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as
> possible so as
> > > > to
> > > > > > minimise wastage of full headroom space which still means
> heaps of
> > > > > > room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a
> 30ft
> > > > cat
> > > > > > or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat
> (maybe
> > > > > > slight exageration)
> > > > > > cheers Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am very curious about this design. If you are at all
> familiar
> > > > with
> > > > > > > the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open
> > > > bridgedeck
> > > > > > > that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason
> > > > you go
> > > > > > > below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks.
> Instead of an
> > > > > > > enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you
> > > > from the
> > > > > > > weather when you need it, but being completely open most
> of the
> > > > time.
> > > > > > > I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept
> down
> > > > because
> > > > > > > you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close
> > > > them for
> > > > > > > rain or heavy seas.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you go here: http://www.mecat.
> click on
> > > > > > > MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with
> > > > trying to
> > > > > > > figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open
> > > > bridgedeck
> > > > > > > layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the
> windage,
> > > > but I
> > > > > > > also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > > > <clairebarker5@
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > > > <gardner@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Gardener
> > > > > > > > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of four
> > > > liveaboard.For us
> > > > > > > > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living
> > > > space for
> > > > > > > > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can
> > > > enclose or
> > > > > > > > make available a fair amount of space and the quality
> of the
> > > > space
> > > > > > > > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in
> > > > reference to the
> > > > > > > > separation of the sailing/living areas.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was
> > > > for a
> > > > > > > > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living
> space,
> > > > no need
> > > > > > > > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room
> below.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide
> > > > enough but
> > > > > > > > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was
> > > > tempted to )
> > > > > > > > youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling
> > > > down hill
> > > > > > > > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple
> and on
> > > > one
> > > > > > > > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding
> piping/cabling
> > > > no doors
> > > > > > > > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a
> > > > quicker
> > > > > > > > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Having said that add a bit more time and money
> (probably not
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the
> > > > cost of
> > > > > > > > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was
> > > > about
> > > > > > > > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon
> area
> > > > and the
> > > > > > > > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade
> became
> > > > one
> > > > > > > > large living area.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a
> couple
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of
> > > > people and
> > > > > > > > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations
> > > > continually
> > > > > > > > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers Tim
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that
> > > > message, you
> > > > > > > > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a
> family of
> > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in
> > > > mind. The
> > > > > > > > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the
> > > > payload
> > > > > > > > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need,
> although
> > > > I have
> > > > > > > > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
> > > > > > fridge/freezer. If
> > > > > > > > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be
> > > > great. We
> > > > > > > > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat
> with a
> > > > 2000lb
> > > > > > > > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be
> ok with
> > > > us.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the
> > > > larger
> > > > > > > > > version, and we will be just a couple, with
> (hopefully) many
> > > > guests,
> > > > > > > > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand
> and the
> > > > > > schooner
> > > > > > > > > rig concerns me for that.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Back to general questions:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be
> > > > performed
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary,
> but in a
> > > > larger
> > > > > > > > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the
> > > > rudders
> > > > > > > > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk
> > > > around
> > > > > > to the
> > > > > > > > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
> > > > > > motorsailing? I
> > > > > > > > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the
> > > > Intracoastal
> > > > > > on the
> > > > > > > > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail,
> > > > interspersed
> > > > > > > > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have
> > > > always
> > > > > > liked to
> > > > > > > > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the
> mast. With
> > > > the
> > > > > > mast
> > > > > > > > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines
> just wind
> > > > up
> > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each
> > > > direction you
> > > > > > > > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to
> answer
> > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your
> designs I
> > > > never
> > > > > > took
> > > > > > > > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > > > <harryproa@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper
> <gardner@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief
> > > > background
> > > > > > > > to put
> > > > > > > > > > > my questions into context.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > snip
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry
> seems
> > > > like
> > > > > > > it has
> > > > > > > > > > > enough payload capacity for a cruising
> couple/liveaboard
> > > > > > > (although
> > > > > > > > > > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are
> looking
> > > > for a
> > > > > > > > coastal
> > > > > > > > > > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > caribbean.
> > > > > > > > > > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on
> > > > Visionarry.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty?
> > > > Does it
> > > > > > > > include
> > > > > > > > > > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What
> > > > about the
> > > > > > > > sails?
> > > > > > > > > > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for
> a sail
> > > > except
> > > > > > > > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast
> sails, boom
> > > > > > > rudders etc.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like.
> Do you
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > any 2D
> > > > > > > > > > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I
> can look
> > > > at? We
> > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat,
> and I
> > > > am
> > > > > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > > > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel
> without
> > > > > > > > dropping the
> > > > > > > > > > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a
> > > > simple model
> > > > > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > > > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the
> > > > job. The
> > > > > > > table
> > > > > > > > > > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will
> forward the
> > > > > > > dimensions.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was
> almost a
> > > > deal
> > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add
> > > > one,
> > > > > > but he
> > > > > > > > > > > managed and the people who know the boats say it
> was one
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > additions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets
> along the
> > > > hull
> > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > > > > galley, where do you put everything?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or
> even
> > > > an
> > > > > > extended
> > > > > > > > > > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the
> latter, but
> > > > it
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living
> aboard.
> > > > > > This is a
> > > > > > > > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress
> > > > your wife!
> > > > > > > > > > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but
> this is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > readily accessible. There are layout options to
> increase
> > > > the
> > > > > > > storage
> > > > > > > > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all
> > > > the
> > > > > > comforts
> > > > > > > > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a
> better
> > > > bet..
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy
> between
> > > > a proa
> > > > > > > > and a
> > > > > > > > > > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
> > > > > > > designed. Are
> > > > > > > > > > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the
> > > > relative
> > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter?
> > > > Double?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and
> > > > fit out.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper
> (although
> > > > there are
> > > > > > > > > > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour
> > > > location.
> > > > > > > The fit
> > > > > > > > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and
> quicker.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the
> ones
> > > > in the ww
> > > > > > > > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds,
> > > > more floor
> > > > > > > > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the same
> level
> > > > as the
> > > > > > > > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other
> groups.
> > > > If
> > > > > > > you are
> > > > > > > > > > > willing to, my email is gardner@
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know.
> They are
> > > > not of
> > > > > > > > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion
> > > > purposes
> > > > > > only,
> > > > > > > > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They
> will
> > > > be
> > > > > > on the
> > > > > > > > > > web page real soon now ........
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to
> check out
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > boat in
> > > > > > > > > > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in
> > > > Sept as to
> > > > > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > > > > went.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have
> asked
> > > > all your
> > > > > > > > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip
> him off
> > > > and
> > > > > > sends
> > > > > > > > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report
> > > > back here.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - What is the mast height off the water?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a
> schooner rig
> > > > so a
> > > > > > > > > little lower.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Rob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > > > <harryproa@>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions,
> please
> > > > keep
> > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper
> > > > <gardner@>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been searching the net for everything
> I can
> > > > find
> > > > > > > on the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but
> there is
> > > > very
> > > > > > > > > little hard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best
> > > > place to
> > > > > > > start.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
> > > > > > although it
> > > > > > > > > might be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with
> > > > some
> > > > > > > general
> > > > > > > > > > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post
> > > > would be
> > > > > > > > > too long
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for anyone to read).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How
> > > > susceptible is
> > > > > > > > that to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are
> > > > subject to
> > > > > > > > > alot of sea
> > > > > > > > > > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the
> > > > maintenance
> > > > > > > > > required?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer
> shells and
> > > > > > > > > epoxy/graphite
> > > > > > > > > > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as
> there is a
> > > > boot
> > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or
> grit)
> > > > did
> > > > > > get in
> > > > > > > > > > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the
> > > > plastic so no
> > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > > > > would be done to the mast.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas
> seem to
> > > > > > have any
> > > > > > > > > safety
> > > > > > > > > > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when
> you need
> > > > to reef
> > > > > > > > > in heavy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the
> bridge
> > > > deck.
> > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck
> at all.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast
> when you
> > > > reef.
> > > > > > > Is it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't
> reach
> > > > it
> > > > > > then.
> > > > > > > > > Or are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind,
> like a
> > > > > > > > "normal" cat?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting
> > > > behind the
> > > > > > > > > sail and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull,
> > > > making the
> > > > > > > > boat
> > > > > > > > > > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat
> > > > handling a
> > > > > > > > little
> > > > > > > > > > > more?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and
> > > > release the
> > > > > > > > sheet.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being
> careful
> > > > not
> > > > > > to get
> > > > > > > > > hit by
> > > > > > > > > > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is
> locked
> > > > > > > > > athwartships,
> > > > > > > > > > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail
> act as
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > > weathervane,
> > > > > > > > > > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the
> rig can
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > sheeted fore
> > > > > > > > > > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so
> > > > capsizing the
> > > > > > > > > wrong way
> > > > > > > > > > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask
> > > > more
> > > > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east
> > > > coast of
> > > > > > > > the US
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we
> built
> > > > > > > > > professionally.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry
> boat
> > > > for the
> > > > > > > > boats
> > > > > > > > > > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk
> > > > through
> > > > > > > > windward
> > > > > > > > > > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is
> > > > that
> > > > > > it has
> > > > > > > > > sailed
> > > > > > > > > > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is
> all I
> > > > > > have. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not
> meet our
> > > > price
> > > > > > > > > estimate,
> > > > > > > > > > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish
> > > > the
> > > > > > > painting
> > > > > > > > > > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is
> > > > George
> > > > > > > Marks. He
> > > > > > > > > > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
> > > > > > > grateful for
> > > > > > > > > > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the
> > > > boat.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast,
> but also
> > > > that
> > > > > > > it is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast
> > > > still
> > > > > > > > rotate 360
> > > > > > > > > > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how
> > > > far the
> > > > > > > > > mast can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in
> the same
> > > > > > direction
> > > > > > > > > > > endlessly?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I tried various staying setups on the
> prototypes. They
> > > > > > are not
> > > > > > > > > worth
> > > > > > > > > > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on
> racers
> > > > eiither.
> > > > > > > > > Amongst
> > > > > > > > > > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360
> > > > degrees. None
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > > > > current designs has stays.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some
> sort of
> > > > > > downwind
> > > > > > > > > sail?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the
> > > > front
> > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > > > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and
> sheet it to
> > > > > > the back
> > > > > > > > > end of
> > > > > > > > > > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large
> genoa type
> > > > sail is
> > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close
> > > > hauled, even
> > > > > > > > > when the
> > > > > > > > > > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is
> > > > athwartships.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing
> speed
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > Blind Date
> > > > > > > > > > > (the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent
> sailing).
> > > > Has a
> > > > > > > polar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal
> readings
> > > > of
> > > > > > speed
> > > > > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > > > > different points of sail, with different wind
> speeds
> > > > > > and sea
> > > > > > > > > states?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.
> where Rare
> > > > Bird
> > > > > > > > > reaches at
> > > > > > > > > > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The
> sails are
> > > > not
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as
> you can
> > > > > > see, no
> > > > > > > > > one is
> > > > > > > > > > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is
> > > > considerably
> > > > > > > > > lighter,
> > > > > > > > > > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes
> back in
> > > > the
> > > > > > water
> > > > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > month or two and some more videos will be
> forthcoming,
> > > > I
> > > > > > hope.
> > > > > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.zeilenme
> appreciate
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > this is
> > > > > > > > > > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all
> we have
> > > > at the
> > > > > > > > > moment.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough)
> prototypes the
> > > > harder
> > > > > > > > > it blows
> > > > > > > > > > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will
> > > > perform,
> > > > > > > > > compared
> > > > > > > > > > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
> > > > > > hulls, the
> > > > > > > > > > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the
> harryproa
> > > > > > platform.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and
> > > > Harryproa)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull
> as the
> > > > hull
> > > > > > > > > lifts to
> > > > > > > > > > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor
> less
> > > > likely,
> > > > > > > > except
> > > > > > > > > > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the
> > > > time/talent to
> > > > > > > > build a
> > > > > > > > > > > boat.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for
> > > > Visionarry ($80K
> > > > > > > > > AU) and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate
> > > > into a
> > > > > > > > budgetary
> > > > > > > > > > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this
> > > > boat?
> > > > > > > > > Assuming I am
> > > > > > > > > > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does
> excellent
> > > > work,
> > > > > > > > > can I jst
> > > > > > > > > > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU
> and get
> > > > a
> > > > > > number?
> > > > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate.
> Moderate by
> > > > > > Australian
> > > > > > > > > > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards
> and very
> > > > > > > expensive
> > > > > > > > > > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am
> > > > currently
> > > > > > > > > > > > talking to builders from South America, South
> Africa,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > Caribbean
> > > > > > > > > > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their
> > > > labour
> > > > > > > > rates are
> > > > > > > > > > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be
> > > > quality
> > > > > > > > > issues to
> > > > > > > > > > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first
> build
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > ensure high
> > > > > > > > > > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be
> far fewer
> > > > > > > hours and
> > > > > > > > > > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
> > > > > > interior will
> > > > > > > > > be far
> > > > > > > > > > > > quicker to install.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
> > > > > > replies to
> > > > > > > > > this, I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Keep 'em coming!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Rob Denney
> > > > > > > > > > > > www.harryproa.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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