-I don't feel there has been enough made of the possible width fro
accommodation. I only see about 2m width of hulls all up. I reckon you
have enough width left over for access to the bunks from inside the
hull, though it would mean extra windage. I do like the weight,
Robert
-- In harryproa@yahoogrou
>
> G'day,
>
> Just posted the weights and materials spreadsheet to the "Trailer
> sailor,see post 3348" file.
>
> As you can see, the weight (415 kgs/913 lbs) is less than I estimated,
> giving an empty Bruce number of 1.9, which is much more respectable.
>
> Anything that looks like a mistake probably is, so please let me know.
>
> Still cleaning up the drawing, and seeing if the whole thing can be
> made from partially glassed flat panels, which will make it much
> quicker to build and eliminate a lot of fillets and tabbing.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@.
> > G'day,
> > There are a number of ways to add to the bruce number. A longer mast
> > is one, although this is harder to erect/remove and trailer. If you
> > leave the mast building until after the hulls and beams are built, you
> > will be an expert in telescoping structures and could go with a
> > 15m/50' luff which telescopes to 8m/27'. Better in the light, and
> > heavy and quicker to erect/remove. This would give you sail area of
> > 41.5 sq m/456 sq' plus 6 sqm/64 sq' of mast . Total 47.5 sq m/510 sq'
> > and assuming we saved enough weight to keep it the same, a Bruce
> > number empty of 2.2, and loaded of 1.77 which is definitely record
> > breaking material.
> >
> > Plans cost is the same as the 12m harry, $Aus3,000, which all goes to
> > the engineer. The plans will show you how to build everything except
> > the sails. You will get a 10% rebate from anyone who buys a set of
> > plans between now and when the next one after yours hits the water.
> > After that, if anyone buys one because of you or your boat, you get
> > the 10%. Payment is 50% now, 50% when the plans are complete. This
> > keeps me enthusiastic during the boring part of the design process,
> > although there should not be much of that with this boat. It also
> > allows me to improve the plans based on feedback from other boats
> > without having to draw everything twice. I will send you bank
> > details and some other stuff offlist.
> >
> > I will do some more work on the drawings and have some more exact
> > numbers tonight, including the materials costs. Could probably ship
> > the Polycore direct from China so it would not be any more expensive
> > than buying it here.
> >
> > A racing hull is a good idea, but really only for day sailing. The
> > hull drawn would be pretty much as small as any sane person would want
> > to sail on the Great Lakes in. Plus, weight in the ww hull is not the
> > big deal it is on cats and tris. It would be a pity to be freezing
> > your butt off on/in a minimal hull that had to have water added to it
> > to get enough righting moment.
> >
> > See you for the Chi/Mac next year!
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 12:16 AM, captian_rapscallion
> > <captian_rapscallio
> >>
> >> I really like the concept! I would build using your carbon fiber
> >> approach, with the hope I add a bit to the bruce number. I
believe the
> >> limit on the type II trailer is 2500 lbs. Perhaps we should discuss
> >> the plan details offline?
> >>
> >> Also, do you have a rough cost of the build? I was thinking polycore,
> >> or nidacore - polycore is better and cheaper but the shipping might
> >> not make it cost effective.
> >>
> >> And as for crewing in the Chi Mac, if you actually show up, I'll crew
> >> and you can skipper!
> >>
> >> And if I have any money left over maybe I can build a "racing" wwhull
> >> just for the mac and key west. I was budgeting for a 31' KH trimaran,
> >> and it was going to be very a tough build cash - wise. This boat is
> >> closer to what I'm looking for (easier to launch, cheaper and easier
> >> to build, easier to sail and should be a fun ride!)
> >>
> >> Eventually, I would like to get a bigger boat in a warmer climate and
> >> cruise, and a proa is perfect for that, so this will be a good middle
> >> step in the right direction.
> >>
> >> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> >>>
> >>> G'day,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 12:03 AM, captian_rapscallion
> >>> <captian_rapscallio
> >>> > Basically,
> >>> >
> >>> > I was thinking of a proa designed to be the ultimate trailer
sailor/
> >>> > racer cruiser. Although the boat will probably be kept in a slip,
> >>> > (meant for a monohull) I really like the idea of a true trailer
> >>> > sailor, meaning a sail boat that can be launched almost as
easily as a
> >>> > fishing boat. I think the Rio Hondo 40 is a good example of such a
> >>> > boat. (it's a bit big, but I like his line of thinking.
> >>>
> >>> Think we can do a lot better than the Rio Hondo (11 knots
reaching or
> >>> running in 16 knots of breeze). Launching will be harder than the
> >>> fishing boat as the mast has to be raised and the beams sorted, but
> >>> both can be done quickly if designed for it.
> >>>
> >>> My ideal would
> >>> > be capable of being pulled by an ordinary car. I was also
hoping it
> >>> > would telescope to about 8'6" for the trailer and the mast(s)
would be
> >>> > easily set up by one person quickly.
> >>>
> >>> 8' 6" is possible, the mast will take a couple of minutes to lift
> >>> (with a gin pole alongside the mast) and insert. Quicker than any
> >>> stayed mast to erect. The telescoping is also very quick, if it is
> >>> set up properly. Makes the building of the beams a little more
> >>> complicated, but all the tight fitting pieces use other parts as
> >>> moulds and it is possible to dry run everything before final
assembly,
> >>> so it is easy enough to build.
> >>>
> >>> I'm willing to give up a bit of
> >>> > performance for ease of setup and tear down. I live 5 to 6
miles from
> >>> > the launch ramp. I really don't have a maximum trailer length,
just a
> >>> > weight limit (type II trailer hitch. Nothing weird to report
about the
> >>> > ramp.
> >>>
> >>> Should not need to give up any performance. I doubt there is 20 kgs
> >>> extra in the telescoping.
> >>>
> >>> Solitarry is 15m/50' and weighs three quarters of a ton ready to
race.
> >>> Be pretty awful to tow, though, so let's say 12m/40'. What is the
> >>> weight limit on a type 11 hitch?
> >>>
> >>> Trailerable width of 2.5m (8'3"), marina width of 3.6m/12' and
sailing
> >>> width of 6m/10' is easy enough with single telescoping beams.
> >>> Leeward hull length 12m/40', windward hull length 7m/24'
> >>> Weight of the shell (hulls, beams, rudders, rig) will be about 550
> >>> kgs/1210 lbs. For the sake of discussion, I have allowed 400 kgs/880
> >>> lbs of payload in the windward hull. It is easy enough to tweak the
> >>> windward hull and or the beam overall for more or less weight or
sail
> >>> area. All up weight 950 kgs/2,090 lbs
> >>>
> >>> Sail area 26 sq m (main) plus 4 sq m of unstayed wing mast, (12m/40'
> >>> long overall) =30 sq m/323 sq'.
> >>>
> >>> Bruce number fully loaded 1.4 Bruce number empty 1.7. Not a record
> >>> breaker, but there would not be many trailer sailors that will be
> >>> faster. .
> >>> Hull flying wind speed empty, 5 knots, Full 15 knots (actually a
> >>> fair bit more than this as the mast bends to spill the wind).
> >>>
> >>> Layout as per the rough rendering in the Files section. Finished
> >>> boat would have radiussed corners on all panel joins, windows,
> >>> hatches, a lot more detail, etc. I will get onto this when I get a
> >>> bit of time, or someone wants to buy one.
> >>> >
> >>> > Accommodation: I was hoping for standing headroom and a fully
enclosed
> >>> > head, a very modest galley, sitting headroom for the bunks is
ok. I
> >>> > was just hoping for some more permanent than a pop top. The
two week
> >>> > trips would be once a year for 2 people. I'm currently doing such
> >>> > trips with a laser 28. The boat would be located on Lake
Michigan, and
> >>> > will hopefully race there, (CHI MAC would be nice) I would
also like
> >>> > to take it to Florida for the Occasional Key West Race is
possible.
> >>> > Lake Michigan is cold and can get pretty rough, so it would be
nice to
> >>> > have a seat out of the cold in addition to the cockpit seating if
> >>> > possible. I live in the fresh water surfing capital of the
world to
> >>> > give you an idea of how rough.
> >>>
> >>> Can do a cover over the cockpit easily enough, which will keep the
> >>> wind and awater off, but I would make it folding (pram hood style),
> >>> just in case you ever do get a sunny day ;-) Crew/wife can sit/lie
> >>> on the bed down stairs if it is really nasty. Close enough to
talk to
> >>> the driver, but dry and warm. The galley space is the opposite
end to
> >>> the bunk. Lots of it, but not much is really usable. Probably put a
> >>> divider across it with a hatch in the roof for access from
outside and
> >>> use it for storing batteries, fuel, fenders etc. The enclosed
head is
> >>> easy enough, but does not quite have standing headroom. The door
> >>> and walls are not shown on the layout drawing.
> >>> >
> >>> > Gear weight for the trips would hopefully be minimal. I would be
> >>> > stopping at Marinas in the evening for water and possibly fuel. I
> >>> > would think 100 lbs of food and gear would be more than
enough, and 2
> >>> > people at 150 lbs each. I like the idea of an electric motor
instead
> >>> > of a gas one, simply because I have always fought an exhaust
leak on
> >>> > my laser 28. It would be nice to not have to worry about that.
> >>>
> >>> The Torqueedo electric motor may do the trick, as would a 5 hp (or
> >>> less) outboard.
> >>> >
> >>> > As far as performance goes, I am hoping for a fast boat. I'm
willing
> >>> > to give up some speed to gain convenience, but it will spend
most of
> >>> > it's life racing. I simply want a comfortable ride while
racing, you
> >>> > know, for the wife :)
> >>>
> >>> Most of the comfort can be removed/replaced if you want to race
> >>> seriously. Although, as it is all righting moment, it is less of a
> >>> big deal to leave it there than it is on a cat. If you do the
Chi Mac
> >>> in it, I want to crew!
> >>>
> >>> Comments, suggestions, criticisms welcome.
> >>>
> >>> regards,
> >>>
> >>> Rob
> >>> > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> G'day,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Sure can. I would use the same basic methodology as I am
using on the
> >>> >> telescoping mast on Solitarry.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Harrigami was complicated as I thought the mast and ballestron
> >> had to be
> >>> >> raised and lowered with the boat on it's side. There are easier
> >>> > ways. The
> >>> >> 12m/40' cat 'W' that I built a few years ago had a beam which
varied
> >>> > from
> >>> >> 4m/13' to 7.5m/25' and could be expanded/contracted by one
person.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I need to know a little bit more about exactly what your
> >>> > requirements are,
> >>> >> maybe email me off list (or on list if you want everybody to add
> >> their
> >>> >> sixpence worth) and we can discuss it.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The questions are:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Maximum trailerable length? This will be longer if it is a once a
> >>> > year trip
> >>> >> from home to the slip, and shorter if you want to use it as a
trailer
> >>> >> sailor.
> >>> >> "Traditional slip" width?
> >>> >> How often will you be trailering it?
> >>> >> Are there any launching/retrievin
> >>> >> How much gear you need for two weeks? Either a list, or a
best guess
> >>> > of the
> >>> >> weight will do for preliminary drawings.
> >>> >> How much comfort do you need. ie, is a two burner cooker, sitting
> >>> > headroom
> >>> >> in the bunk, comfortable cockpit seats enough, or do you need
> >> more than
> >>> >> this?
> >>> >> Motor requirements?
> >>> >> Electrical requirements?
> >>> >> What is your sailing area? More importantly, how sunny and
how cold
> >>> > is it
> >>> >> likely to be?
> >>> >> Any thing else that may be of interest.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> regards,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Rob
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I also like the Seabattical design, not so much because of it's
> >>> > looks, which
> >>> >> are way down the list of characteristics I like about boats, but
> >>> > because it
> >>> >> fulfills it's requirements so well. The first of these was
low cost
> >>> > (very
> >>> >> high on the characteristics list).
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 10:51 AM, captian_rapscallion <
> >>> >> captian_rapscallion
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > I like the elementary design, and the harrygami design. I was
> >>> >> > wondering if a design that had a cabin with standing head
room and
> >>> >> > accommodation for a two week trip for a couple would be
> >> possible in a
> >>> >> > proa designed to "fold" using a sliding mechanism that would
> >> allow the
> >>> >> > proa to be moored in a traditional slip and be trailered
easily.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > I also really like the seabattical design.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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