G'day,

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow.org> wrote:
> On keeping the first project small, I found a design that looks like it
> would be a good dinghy; simple light, good load carrying and made from
> fiberglass and foam:
> http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Boat%20Designs/Life%20Dory%2010,%2012,%2014/wave_dancer_12.htm
> but it isn't a catamaran dinghy, and it looks like the idea is that you
> fiberglass the foam, then bend it, then apply more fiberglass. With KSS and
> also your methods, I get the impression that I can do all the fiberglassing
> (except for joining) on the table, and even apply the gelcoat.

Looks ideal. He says it has no compound curves so you should get away
with the same thickness cored panel as his plywood ones. However, he
also recommends carbon and kevlar to save weight, when the same weight
of fibreglass would be just as good for such small panels, so he may
or may not know what he is talking about. I would layup a pieces of
5mm with 200/6 ounce glass each side and see if it bends enough.
Maybe use 300/10 ounce on the bottom. If it does go for it.

Not all the proa panels are fully glassed. The seats, for example are
glassed one side, then bent to shape and glassed the other. The hulls
are glassed both sides down to the waterline, then left plain until
the shaping is done.

>
> Your friend is moving from NZ to Panama? I have always wanted to move to NZ
> (love the place). I will definitely look into it. I will need to sort out
> the design and figure a ballpark labor/parts estimate to see if it is even
> worth asking for a bid. My timeframe for the trailerable was about 2 years,
> but maybe a deal could help me locate undiscovered funds <grin>
> Does this mean that you have a new quote for the charter proa? I remember
> you mentioning the $80K figure from china, and that you expected the quote
> from Panama to come in lower, but I haven't seen a posting on what it was.

He has been living in Panama for 12 months. Absolutely loves the
place. We have not done a new quote as there are too many
iompinderables with the work force. That is one of the reasons I want
to start on a smaller project. It costs me less free labour if I get
a small boat wrong than it does on the charter one. China was
$86,000, and he is very keen to get the job. The Peruvians (96,000)
estimated the shell price at 2,000 hours at $21/hour plus $44,000 of
materials. I reckon 1,400 hours at $18 and sourcing the materials
from here, $37,000. $62,000 total.

> In terms of containerization, if the lw hull is kept to 39', I have realized
> that I can fit all the components of the design you drew (and my
> modifications) in the other trailerable thread (I just posted my drawing
> yesterday) into the container. The question is the mast. I know that a
> single mast would be too tall. What about a schooner rig?
> This leads to my rig questions. You have very kindly provided me with useful
> information to get started selecting the hull sizes based on displacement.
> Can you help me estimating the rig? I can calculate the lever arm of the ww
> hull, so if I know a guesstimate on how to calculate the sail size and mast
> height, I can play around with different factors until I get something that
> isn't stupid, instead of asking all the time.

You can build longer hulls or masts and join them when you get it out
of the container. This is what I will be doing with solitarrys lee
hull. Or, you can use a telescoping mast, such as the trailer sailor.
Sail area is another length of a piece of string. First thing to do
is decide the Bruce number, which is the sq root of the sail area
divided by the cube root of the weight. For Blind Date fully loaded
this is 8,288 lbs and 774 sq' so the BN is 1.4. This would be a good
place to start. Use the weights of known size boats on the harryproa
web page to give you a starting idea of the weight.

I am about to post the latest trailer sailor drawings. I will
relocate yours so people don't get confused.

regards,
Rob
>
>
> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:02 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> G'day,
>>
>> Nothing wrong with a wandering mind, except I have forgotten what we
>> were talking about...........;-)
>>
>> I would definitely make the first project a small one. A dinghy is
>> ideal. Do your infusion test pieces on the glass, then build a
>> melamine table and infuse some 7'6' x 3'6" panels and use these for a
>> dinghy. Or, start with small flat components (hatches, bunk bases,
>> floors) for the boat if you don't need a dinghy.
>>
>> You get more bang for your buck the bigger you go, but there are more
>> bucks (and hours) required.
>>
>> Re having it built elsewhere, have I got a deal for you!
>>
>> During the search for a builder for the charter boat, a kiwi mate of
>> mine moved to Panama (he reckons it is a nicer place to live than NZ)
>> where he is importing boat gear. He and some locals are putting
>> together a proposal for a one stop marine store on the Pacific end of
>> the canal. Starting with a 620 boat marina, sail loft and boat
>> building/repair facility, with a charter fleet to follow. They have
>> just acquired an enormous shed and are very keen to build the charter
>> proa. I have agreed to oversee the construction of the first boat and
>> to make sure their crew know how it is all done. However, it would be
>> better for all concerned if we were to build a smaller version first.
>>
>> If this is of interest to you (or anybody else on the list), please
>> let me know. Labour rates are very low, it is a US dollar economy and
>> the local labour is apparently skilled at glass work and keen to
>> learn. No shortage of ships to bring it home on, or you could sail it
>> to the Caribbean, which is one of the advantages for the charter boat.
>> The price of the first boat will be as low as we can possibly make it.
>>
>> Container size is as you say, although 9'6" high boxes are available
>> so a windward hull of a 40' harry (which suits your requirements
>> pretty well) could be put in on it's side.
>>
>> Re me doing drawings. No need as you are doing an excellent job. I
>> would suggest that you do a side view as well, and when you are happy
>> with it, a front one. Stick with block shapes, we can round the edges
>> later. Draw some block people (use your body for measurements, don't
>> forget the feet) and use them to get a feel for standing, sitting and
>> lying down space. When you decide what you want, we can talk about
>> money. The advice is free, I enjoy working with enthusiasts, if for
>> no other reason that they stimulate my thought processes, resulting in
>> this case in a much better steering system for the trailer sailor
>> which does not involve long tiller extensions and is not affected by
>> lifting the rudders, a major drama with rope driven wheel systems.
>> More on this later when I have done some drawings.
>>
>> You don't need to move to flip the rudders. The water force does it
>> automatically when you shunt. The cockpit will have a pram hood cover
>> (I prefer these to fixed covers as they give more options and are
>> lighter) to keep you dry.
>>
>> Mike, excellent advice.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow.org>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > You are absolutely right, I have let my mind wander again. That is the
>> > danger, and the beauty, of the idea that you can play with layout ideas
>> > pretty much independent of the hulls, and fit the appropriate hulls to
>> > the
>> > layout later.
>> >
>> > The reason I looking at this larger design, is that the "fat"
>> > Elementarry
>> > looks to be 700-1000 hours of work, which might be too much for my first
>> > project and it sounds like you get more "bang for your buck" (as in
>> > labor
>> > hours) as a proa scales up. With something similar to what I posted
>> > (since
>> > modified), my family could take a week's vacation in Maine, or the
>> > Florida
>> > Keys, or maybe the Bahamas. I could live on it indefinitely (once my
>> > family
>> > got fed up with it <grin>).
>> >
>> > I am trying to get a feel for the time and expense involved in different
>> > size/function proas. I might even be interested in contracting out
>> > (maybe
>> > wherever the charter proa is being built) to have something like this
>> > built
>> > for me. Do you happen to know what the dimension restrictions are for a
>> > shippng container? I think it is a little less than 8' x 40'. Probably
>> > too
>> > small, but might make shipping from China more practical.
>> >
>> > On the matter of you not doing drawings, I am absolutely glad that you
>> > aren't. I feel guilty with the time you are spending answering my
>> > questions.
>> > If at any point you think we should make a more formal arrangement, just
>> > contact me privately.
>> >
>> > On the matter of steering, that seems to be another unresolved issue on
>> > the
>> > larger trailerables. I know you have at least one other person talking
>> > to
>> > you about this type design. Is the idea to just use *really* long tiller
>> > extensions. If cruising for a week or two, I am not crazy about being
>> > out in
>> > the rain steering, and popping over to the lee hull each time I shunt to
>> > flip the rudders around. Is that what is required? I have no ideas for
>> > how
>> > to make a remote steering system that would also collapse to trailer
>> > width.
>> > That sounds like it might just go off the bounds of too much complexity.
>> >
>> > - Gardner
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> G'day,
>> >>
>> >> Can do it, but this is hardly the day sailing trailer sailer, the
>> >> cabin will ned to be high at the ends so you can sit up in the bunks,
>> >> and where do you sit to sail the boat?
>> >> regards,
>> >>
>> >> Rob
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Gardner Pomper
>> >> <gardner@networknow.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Pursuing the idea of making the ww hull a bit longer, I have uploaded
>> >> > another sketch to the file "trailerable Pomper". I am deliberately
>> >> > trying to
>> >> > leave as much of the interior of the hull unfinished as I can, and
>> >> > (naturally), I need to have standard size bunks. The pop top can have
>> >> > roll
>> >> > down clears for foul weather. The bunks are covered with clear lexan,
>> >> > which
>> >> > can be flipped up to enclose the cockpit when the weather is bad, or
>> >> > you
>> >> > want to use them. You enter the bunks from the flip down walkway, or
>> >> > over
>> >> > the back of the lazarrette.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't know that I added much weight, so hopefully we can preserve
>> >> > the
>> >> > 10:1
>> >> > ratio on the ww hull.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Gardner
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> G'day,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Preliminary numbers
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ww hull 5m/15' long, waterline 450mm/18", draft 220mm/8.5",
>> >> >> displacement 640 lbs, prismatic .77. (Use this to allow for the hull
>> >> >> shape when you multiply the cross sectional area in the middle of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> boat by the length). I would probably go a little longer to cope
>> >> >> with your other requirements.
>> >> >> lw hull, as long as you can build, trail, afford and handle. The
>> >> >> longer it is, the higher the top speed and the drier and more
>> >> >> comfortable the motion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The single sail works well on boats with light windward hulls, as
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> rudder is aft, which makes it balanced. With 600 kgs on a shortish
>> >> >> ww
>> >> >> hull, the ballestron may be a better bet, although once you know how
>> >> >> to shunt, it won't be a problem. With a lot of people on board, and
>> >> >> not much boom clearance the ballestron needs to be watched while
>> >> >> shunting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There will be trampolines, which will be on side pieces with a hinge
>> >> >> in the middle so it can be folded when the boat telescopes. A
>> >> >> walkway can do the same.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sail is loose footed (attached only to the outboard end of the
>> >> >> boom).
>> >> >> On Elementarry, the boom is attached to the mast. It has a sock
>> >> >> luff,
>> >> >> so this is not a problem. Yours would have slides, so the boom needs
>> >> >> to rotate relative to the mast, but not move vertically. Not a big
>> >> >> deal. Your boom will indeed be too long to attach permanently. It
>> >> >> will be strapped to the bearing on the mast, again, not a big deal.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The hours on the charter boat are for the shell. This one could take
>> >> >> anywhere from 500-1,000+ hours depending on all the usual stuff, but
>> >> >> mostly on the standard of finish required. There are some alignment
>> >> >> details to make it telescope smoothly, which could add some time.
>> >> >> They are all done before the beams are closed up permanently, so are
>> >> >> not difficult, just might take a while.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Materials cost? Same as the other trailer sailor, give or take a
>> >> >> bit.
>> >> >> It is cheaper to import the materials from here. Let me or Raps
>> >> >> know if you want to share the shipping costs.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Could be a single bunk, or the galley and stowage. The double is
>> >> >> 6'x5', the single is 5x3. Yours will have the cockpit in this area.
>> >> >> The toilet at one end of the hull and the galley at the other end.
>> >> >> Access will be through deck hatches.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re infusion. Derek's workshops are fantastic, Henny at
>> >> >> http://www.fram.nl/ has a lot of info and a cd, as does Steve in
>> >> >> Houston, but I don't have his web address. By far the best way to
>> >> >> learn about it is:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Get a vacuum pump from ebay, (old milking pumps, fridge compressors,
>> >> >> air con evacuators all work) and a sheet of window glass about 30"
>> >> >> square. Buy some clear builders plastic, some window sealant, glass,
>> >> >> foam, peel ply and resin, some shade cloth and some 10mm plastic
>> >> >> conduit. Drill the smallest holes you can every 4" in the foam and a
>> >> >> 1/4" hole every 4" in the middle 18" of 2 pieces of 4' lengths of
>> >> >> conduit, cut the cloth and peel ply and lay it on the glass with a
>> >> >> 2"
>> >> >> border all the way round. Put the shade cloth on the glass and wrap
>> >> >> it around the perforated section of the lengths of conduit such that
>> >> >> one piece is on one side of the job, the other is on the opposite
>> >> >> side. Cut a piece of plastic the same size as the glass and seal it
>> >> >> to the glass and around the conduit. Block one end of one piece of
>> >> >> conduit and hook the other end up to the vac pump. Block both ends
>> >> >> of the other piece. Check for leaks (listening) is the best way.
>> >> >> When it is leak free, unseal the ends of the non vacuum conduit and
>> >> >> put them in buckets of resin. Prepare to be amazed. When the
>> >> >> infusion is complete (look under the glass aswell as on top), seal
>> >> >> off
>> >> >> the resin conduit and leave it to cure. You now know more about
>> >> >> infusion than 95% of the world's boatbuilders. Study and weigh the
>> >> >> sample, and let me know what it looks like and what went wrong and I
>> >> >> will start lesson 2.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Elementarry as a tender? Could do, but without seats, it is not very
>> >> >> comfortable. It is also a bit fragile for hauling up beaches and
>> >> >> over
>> >> >> rocks. The Torqueedo would work, but rowing wouldn't. No sweat on
>> >> >> the payload, but it would all be on the trampoline. You would be
>> >> >> better off with a conventional dinghy. Loading El on the cabin top
>> >> >> for blasting around when you get there has more merit, but the
>> >> >> mother
>> >> >> ship really should be bigger for this.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Let me know what the next step is, or if I have forgotten to reply
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> anything.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> regards,
>> >> >> Rob
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Gardner Pomper
>> >> >> <gardner@networknow.org>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Ok, I can tell by the responses that it won't be a small boat :( I
>> >> >> > was
>> >> >> > hoping for something smaller than the design that is taking shape.
>> >> >> > Since
>> >> >> > that looks to be not true, let me fall back to that one, and drop
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > weight
>> >> >> > requirements and the 6 passenger (we will only invite people on a
>> >> >> > nice
>> >> >> > day
>> >> >> > for a few hours. They can sit on the trampolines (there can be
>> >> >> > trampolines,
>> >> >> > right?) Then we can design for crew weight of 600lbs, and seating
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > 3-4.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I notice that you are not using the ballestron right. I am
>> >> >> > flouting
>> >> >> > my
>> >> >> > ingorance here, but how can you go upwind with a mast centered for
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > aft
>> >> >> > and no headsail?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I was also thinking of a 3-4' flat panel, hinged at the floor, to
>> >> >> > give
>> >> >> > some
>> >> >> > sort of walkway outside the cockpit. Fold it down once the beam is
>> >> >> > expanded.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Is the sail loose footed? The charter proa talks about the boom
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > mast
>> >> >> > being one piece, but it would seem to make it too wide for
>> >> >> > trailering.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Since you have basics worked out on that trailer sailor, do you
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > an
>> >> >> > estimate of work hours for an "average" finish? I know you have
>> >> >> > mentioned
>> >> >> > 1400 for the charter proa hull (by professionals, I am sure).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > There looks to be a single bunk "forward" also. Is that true, or
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > galley? What are the bunk dimensions?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> G'day,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:00 PM, gardnerpomper
>> >> >> >> <gardner@networknow.org>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Some sort of liveaboard harryproa seems like my next cruising
>> >> >> >> > boat. I
>> >> >> >> > am interested in both sampling the experience, and finding out
>> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> > I
>> >> >> >> > have the fortitude to build one. I have seen messages about a
>> >> >> >> > trailerable design and I have some questions specific to using
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > "try out" the home build/proa idea.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Requirements:
>> >> >> >> > 1) trailerable as other specs (8'6" trailer width,
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> ><1000lbs with trailer (negotiable))
>> >> >> >> Difficult, negotiations can start when i have done some drawings.
>> >> >> >> > 2) build method as similar to proposed charter boat as
>> >> >> >> > possible,
>> >> >> >> > since
>> >> >> >> > that is identified as simplest for larger boats
>> >> >> >> > fast and easy on/off the trailer. this would be a daysailer,
>> >> >> >> > driving
>> >> >> >> > 2
>> >> >> >> > hours to the water, set it up, sail for a few hours, break it
>> >> >> >> > down,
>> >> >> >> > trailer it 2 hours home.
>> >> >> >> Easy
>> >> >> >> > 3) I am heavy (300lbs), so the crew weight (3 of us) would be
>> >> >> >> > about
>> >> >> >> > 550lbs. We would like to be able to invite another 2 adults and
>> >> >> >> > a
>> >> >> >> > child and still sail it well, so total crew weight could be 900
>> >> >> >> > lbs.
>> >> >> >> Difficult, I will see what the minimum size is to do this. How
>> >> >> >> much
>> >> >> >> extra for food and safety gear?
>> >> >> >> > 4) Enclosed head
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 5) sail without getting wet
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 6) camping propane stove
>> >> >> >> > 7) comfy seats and table to eat at
>> >> >> >> Can this be outside, under a removable bimini with roll down
>> >> >> >> sides?
>> >> >> >> Otherwise, it is a bit ticky for 6 people.
>> >> >> >> > 8) standing headroom (fold down bimini ok)
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 9) rain protected
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 10) will never be INTENTIONALLY sailed in > 20 kts
>> >> >> >> Yeah, right!
>> >> >> >> > 11) ballestron rig
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I won't be racing, but I will want performance comparable to
>> >> >> >> > what
>> >> >> >> > we
>> >> >> >> > have heard from Rare Bird and the charter proa design (i.e.
>> >> >> >> > windspeed
>> >> >> >> > up to 15 knots). I *don't* want to fly a hull!! (I'm timid)
>> >> >> >> Timid is good, but it will be a sizableboat to do this with 6
>> >> >> >> people
>> >> >> >> on
>> >> >> >> board.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Questions:
>> >> >> >> > 1) What would plan cost be?
>> >> >> >> TBA when i see what is involved. Probably $Aus3,000, as it is
>> >> >> >> going
>> >> >> >> to be a one off. You get 10% off any future plans sold to the
>> >> >> >> design until the next one is sailing. After that it is as per the
>> >> >> >> Goodwill Fee on http://www.harryproa.com/plans.htm Part of the
>> >> >> >> plans
>> >> >> >> price wil be deducted from the big boat fee.
>> >> >> >> 2) would plans include info on resin infusion and building a
>> >> >> >> table,
>> >> >> >> > etc, etc? Or at least point me to such info?
>> >> >> >> yes. As much information as you need on anything in the plans.
>> >> >> >> > 2) Estimated build time (novice.. experienced with
>> >> >> >> > epoxy/fiberglass,
>> >> >> >> > even some with carbon mat as reinforement, but never built a
>> >> >> >> > boat).
>> >> >> >> > If
>> >> >> >> > you prefer, you can supply "average estimated build" and I will
>> >> >> >> > put
>> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> > my own "idiot factor" multiplier
>> >> >> >> TBA, but mostly it will depend on the level of finish inside and
>> >> >> >> outside that you require.
>> >> >> >> > 3) Would it be close to the "trailer sailer" layout jpg I see
>> >> >> >> > posted
>> >> >> >> > in the forums?
>> >> >> >> Not if you want a cockpit for 6, which will replace the bunks
>> >> >> >> >What are hull lengths?
>> >> >> >> Long! What is the longest you can build, trailer and handle on
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> ramp?
>> >> >> >> > 4) When could I start? I have a building available this
>> >> >> >> > summer/fall,
>> >> >> >> > but it is not heated
>> >> >> >> Tomorrow, building the table. You won't get all the plans
>> >> >> >> immediately, but i will keep ahead of your progress. Pay for half
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> plans up front, the rest before the last drawings arrive.
>> >> >> >> > 5) material cost? availablity?
>> >> >> >> Not a huge amount, probably less than the resale value of the
>> >> >> >> boat.
>> >> >> >> Can get it from your local supplier, apart from the carbon for
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> mast, boom, rudders and beams which I will supply from Texas.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > BTW, I live in Pennsylvania (US).
>> >> >> >> No problem ;-)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >> >> > - Gardner
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> My pleasure,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Rob
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>
>