Subject: [harryproa] Re: Current rudder design?
From: Mike Crawford
Date: 5/31/2008, 1:24 PM

  I agree with that losing masts and rudders is not something for which one plans.

  But it does happen.  I lost a centerboard last year when I turned the tiller over to a friend and he hit a submerged rock that wasn't on the GPS.  Granted, I shouldn't have let him sail in that area in the first place, but I trusted him when he said he had 30 years of experience in those waters.  Perhaps he was mesmerized by the pretty screen, thinking that it was always right.  I don't know because I was busy down below at the time.  Live and learn.  Anyway, that grounding could easily have wiped out two kick-up rudders.

  I'm not saying that having backups has to be one of the main criteria for choosing a design, but there is something to be said for a system that could still sail on after losing one mast, or could steer after losing both rudders.  It would do neither well, but it would do both better than a boat with no masts, or a boat with a central sail but no rudders.  This is especially true for a proa that can shunt.

  Where these capabilities belong in terms of priority is obviously a personal preference.  If you race and daysail, they probably aren't important.  If you want to be out of sight of land for weeks at a time, they merit consideration.

  The question of whether or not the hassle is worth the extra sail area is also personal.  If you're on your own and can't handle a single mast of 24 meters, there's something to be said for having two masts of 12 meters each, despite the hassle. 

  It's also worth it if you have a height restriction while sailing, or a length restriction while trailering.  My original reason for wanting a schooner rig was that I was thinking of a Visionarry with extra upwind sail area for low wind days, but which could also fit under the 64' bridge limit in the Intracoastal waterway.  In this case, extending a single mast would not work.  Nor would using an outleader kite, which is not optimal when going to windward, and certainly would not be useful for short-tacking up an inlet.  I've got several miles of short-tacking to do in order to get out to open water. 

  I could just motor out, but I enjoy sailing, and also dislike burning fossil fuels.  Thus, I'd like a massive amount of sail area for those 4-knot days which are somewhat common in Maine in July.  My current boat has an SA/D of 60 (bruce no. 1.93) when empty, and I'd actually like more sail for light wind days (I'm very happy to reef when things pipe up).  A schooner rig could put up an immense amount of sail for really light wind, and then have a number of reefing options as things increase.  Plus, if the wind is well under hull-lifting speed, you can tack through it, so the two sails wouldn't require quite the same effort as a shunt.

  It's possible that Rob's telescoping mast design could address my issue of having a mast height limitation, with the added benefit of having that extra sail area high up when sailing in light wind.  Two sticks is not the only solution for dealing with a height or trailering length limit.

  I still consider two sticks, but by the time I get around to getting a new boat, the telescoping design will be tested and proven, making a schooner rig seem like more work than it's worth.

       - Mike

Doug Haines wrote:



I'd like to reply to mike:

losing one mast is not something you plan for.

Neither is losing both rudders.

I can't handle both sails (4 sets of sheet ropes), plus rudders (mine need to go up and down in a shunt) very well. The question is is the extra handling hassle worth it if you might gat better speed ?



--- On Sat, 31/5/08, tsstproa <> wrote:

From: tsstproa <>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Current rudder design?
Date: Saturday, 31 May, 2008, 12:31 AM


And two sticks carring two sails is more drag, vs one.

More sail area won't due you any good if its in the wrong place.
Or needing to use deep boards to compensate for extra sail area in
wrong place to stay in control adding even more drag. Its a proa no.

Going off shore most carry spare of everything that they can.

Steer By sails alone on a proa that needs deep daggerboards (prove
it) explain that.

Weather cocking on a proa balanced right easily does that with a
single sail.

Each to his own i'd agree.

But Doug said he thought his boards needed to be further out
towards bows for better control.

So I simply gave a alternative, a glimps of what I thought worked
well. Why would some take offense to that. I share my ideas knowing
nothings set in stone I know this. Its nice to get different
perspectives on different problems and solutions.


--- In harryproa@yahoogrou, Mike Crawford <jmichael@.. .>
> Two sets of everything is more complex. There's a lot to be
said for
> a single una rig that doesn't have to be messed with.
> With that said, a schooner rig will:
> - allow more sail area for the same righting moment
> - provide a backup in case one mast/sail fails
> - use shorter/lighter masts that are more easily stepped, and
> transported/ shipped
> - allow you to steer and sail the boat, even if both rudders are
> - provide a great weathercocking setup using a reefed aft sail
in a
> big storm (assuming you're not using drogues yet).
> It's all a matter of what you want to do with the boat, how far
> you want to go, and how long you'll be there. One person's hassle
> another person's peace of mind.
> - Mike
> tsstproa wrote:
> >
> > Its just finding the correct geomtry to allow specific sail being
> > used to feather through Aframe if back winded.
> >
> > I see where you would think having two sails would make it
easier to
> > set for any condition in deep water.
> >
> > But what could be easier than one line to reef sail and another
> > shift entire sail from fore to aft. Instead of worring about two
> > sets of everything.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > <mailto:harryproa% 40yahoogroups.>, "Robert" <cateran1949@ >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > If the sails were as easy to shunt and good in being caught
> > I
> > > would be with you all the way. I intend to set up a system
> > to
> > > your A frame on my 5m outrigger proa using a windsurfer rig.
It is
> > > designed for paddling out to snorkeling and fishing spots, and
> > > would be nice to sail home when the wind gets up.
> > >
> > > When you are in deeper water with a schooner rig, you power
up. You
> > > are not feathering all the time
> > > Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > <mailto:harryproa% 40yahoogroups.>, "tsstproa" <bitme1234@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I don't know less depth less likely to hit somthing. Sounds
> > for
> > > > cruising or racing. Also smaller boards possibly working
> > less
> > > > strain on structure.
> > > >
> > > > Also one sail less gear along with shorter board depths =
> > drag
> > > > What a waste to have one sail feathering in the wake of
> > > >
> > > > Better balance faster foward speeds with least amount of
> > all
> > > > around.
> > > >
> > > > Todd

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