On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow.
>
> Am I asking too much? A boat that will sail at windspeed up to 15 knots, is
> trailerable at 25' long, can sleep a family of 3, with a full galley, fits
> in a container, can be assembled quickly by 1 person and costs less than
> $50K? Nah!
>
> I am still concerned about the mast. I gather the telescoping mask has not
> yet been built/tested. How do I calculate the mast heights for a single
> balestoron rig versus a schooner rig?
>
> Thanks,
> - Gardner
G'day,
Could probably get close. We fitted harrigami in on a trailer, but
there was no spare room. Hinged ends are pretty easy to engineer. As
Robert says, no one has ever asked for them.
Telescoping mast is still unbuilt, but the reasons why it has not been
done before have been resolved, so it should be doable. To compare
rigs, compare the height of centre of effort.
By the way, many thanks to everyone who has been contributing to these
threads. Lots of good ideas, lots of good sense, and no animosity.
Much appreciated.
regards
Rob
>
>
> On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Robert <cateran1949@
>>
>> -I thought of having the beam rudders on a sleeve. This allows the
>> beams to still pass through the ww hull. .
>> Fold up bows have been thought of but never persued. Not so much that
>> they wouldn't work but so far no one has felt they are really
>> necessary for their situation. A decent hinge on the deck and a few
>> though pins with cam locking devices and it could be done in a matter
>> of minutes.
>> For me, I'd slide the lee hull forward and up to go over the back of
>> the towing vehicle, but if I had to use a small berth on a marina,
>> then the fold ups would be invaluable.
>> Robert
>>
>> -- In harryproa@yahoogrou
>> >
>> > Sometimes I feel like I should change my forum handle to
>> "wacked_out_
>> > Here is another one:
>> >
>> > I realized that trailering a 40' lee hull would require driving
>> pretty much
>> > like a tractor trailer trucker with a 40' load. I was wondering if it is
>> > practical to make the bows of the lee hull detachable. Since there
>> are no
>> > rigging loads, I thought if the construction was similar to a nesting
>> > dinghy, where there were bulkheads on the lee hull just forward of the
>> > beams, I could shorten trailerable length of my design to 25', and
>> extend
>> > the lee hull length to 45'. From my rough math, a 10' bow section
>> should be
>> > about 65 square feet, and at 1 lb/sq ft, it would be a manageable
>> weight to
>> > slide down into brackets and then throughbolt to the main section.
>> >
>> > I noticed on the "racing" trailerable design, that you put the
>> rudders in
>> > the lee hull. Would it be possible to mount the rudders (possibly on a
>> > removeable bracket) on the beams, while only increasing the width a
>> foot or
>> > so? That section of the crossbeam could not retract into the ww
>> section, but
>> > could still be withdrawn through the lee hull. The reason I am
>> asking, is
>> > that I would like a variable depth for the rudders.
>> >
>> > - Gardner
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@.
>> >
>> > > G'day,
>> > >
>> > > That would do as a WAG. Less labour, unless you want something that
>> > > cannot be done from flat panels. We would obviously fine tune it as
>> > > much as possible as the design progressed.
>> > >
>> > > regards.
>> > >
>> > > Rob
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 10:18 PM, Gardner Pomper
>> <gardner@...
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > Hi,
>> > > >
>> > > > I just updated my drawing with a bit more details and comments
>> about what
>> > > > things are where, so please get that version, or just tell me
>> where you
>> > > want
>> > > > it and I will re-upload it.
>> > > > One thing I neglected to mention in my "containerization" idea,
>> is that
>> > > if I
>> > > > go that route, I would want to be able to re-containerize the
>> boat. Apart
>> > > > from sailing fantasies, I have long wanted to live for a year in
>> many
>> > > > countries around the globe. Part of that was the idea that I
>> might be
>> > > able
>> > > > to ship my boat to Europe for a couple years, then Australia,
>> then NZ,
>> > > etc,
>> > > > etc. The telescoping mast might be reasonable for that, although
>> it would
>> > > > probably behoove me to just get one made if I ever actual decide
>> to do
>> > > that.
>> > > > I was just wondering if 2 short masts (39' each) might give the same
>> > > power
>> > > > as one taller one, then I would be all set from the get-go.
>> Although I do
>> > > > like the idea of the ballestron rig on a single mast as being much
>> > > simpler
>> > > > to work with on a day to day basis.
>> > > > If I wanted to make a WAG as to having my version of the trailer
>> sailor
>> > > > built, do you think I would be far off if I used the other
>> trailer design
>> > > > materials cost and the charter proa labor cost? So, maybe $8k
>> materials
>> > > and
>> > > > $25K labor, plus $3K plans and $4K shipping to PA ? Total $40K for
>> > > > budgetting purposes (shell and mast). Assuming I would fit the
>> > > electronics,
>> > > > appliances, etc when it got here?
>> > > > - Gardner
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Rob Denney
>> <harryproa@.
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> G'day,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:31 PM, Gardner Pomper
>> <gardner@...
>> > > >
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >> > On keeping the first project small, I found a design that
>> looks like
>> > > it
>> > > >> > would be a good dinghy; simple light, good load carrying and
>> made from
>> > > >> > fiberglass and foam:
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > >
>>
>> http://www.johnsboa
>> > > >> > but it isn't a catamaran dinghy, and it looks like the idea
>> is that
>> > > you
>> > > >> > fiberglass the foam, then bend it, then apply more
>> fiberglass. With
>> > > KSS
>> > > >> > and
>> > > >> > also your methods, I get the impression that I can do all the
>> > > >> > fiberglassing
>> > > >> > (except for joining) on the table, and even apply the gelcoat.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Looks ideal. He says it has no compound curves so you should
>> get away
>> > > >> with the same thickness cored panel as his plywood ones.
>> However, he
>> > > >> also recommends carbon and kevlar to save weight, when the same
>> weight
>> > > >> of fibreglass would be just as good for such small panels, so
>> he may
>> > > >> or may not know what he is talking about. I would layup a pieces of
>> > > >> 5mm with 200/6 ounce glass each side and see if it bends enough.
>> > > >> Maybe use 300/10 ounce on the bottom. If it does go for it.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Not all the proa panels are fully glassed. The seats, for
>> example are
>> > > >> glassed one side, then bent to shape and glassed the other. The
>> hulls
>> > > >> are glassed both sides down to the waterline, then left plain until
>> > > >> the shaping is done.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Your friend is moving from NZ to Panama? I have always wanted
>> to move
>> > > to
>> > > >> > NZ
>> > > >> > (love the place). I will definitely look into it. I will need
>> to sort
>> > > >> > out
>> > > >> > the design and figure a ballpark labor/parts estimate to see
>> if it is
>> > > >> > even
>> > > >> > worth asking for a bid. My timeframe for the trailerable was
>> about 2
>> > > >> > years,
>> > > >> > but maybe a deal could help me locate undiscovered funds <grin>
>> > > >> > Does this mean that you have a new quote for the charter proa? I
>> > > >> > remember
>> > > >> > you mentioning the $80K figure from china, and that you
>> expected the
>> > > >> > quote
>> > > >> > from Panama to come in lower, but I haven't seen a posting on
>> what it
>> > > >> > was.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> He has been living in Panama for 12 months. Absolutely loves the
>> > > >> place. We have not done a new quote as there are too many
>> > > >> iompinderables with the work force. That is one of the reasons
>> I want
>> > > >> to start on a smaller project. It costs me less free labour if
>> I get
>> > > >> a small boat wrong than it does on the charter one. China was
>> > > >> $86,000, and he is very keen to get the job. The Peruvians (96,000)
>> > > >> estimated the shell price at 2,000 hours at $21/hour plus
>> $44,000 of
>> > > >> materials. I reckon 1,400 hours at $18 and sourcing the materials
>> > > >> from here, $37,000. $62,000 total.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> > In terms of containerization, if the lw hull is kept to 39',
>> I have
>> > > >> > realized
>> > > >> > that I can fit all the components of the design you drew (and my
>> > > >> > modifications) in the other trailerable thread (I just posted my
>> > > drawing
>> > > >> > yesterday) into the container. The question is the mast. I
>> know that a
>> > > >> > single mast would be too tall. What about a schooner rig?
>> > > >> > This leads to my rig questions. You have very kindly provided
>> me with
>> > > >> > useful
>> > > >> > information to get started selecting the hull sizes based on
>> > > >> > displacement.
>> > > >> > Can you help me estimating the rig? I can calculate the lever
>> arm of
>> > > the
>> > > >> > ww
>> > > >> > hull, so if I know a guesstimate on how to calculate the sail
>> size and
>> > > >> > mast
>> > > >> > height, I can play around with different factors until I get
>> something
>> > > >> > that
>> > > >> > isn't stupid, instead of asking all the time.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> You can build longer hulls or masts and join them when you get
>> it out
>> > > >> of the container. This is what I will be doing with solitarrys lee
>> > > >> hull. Or, you can use a telescoping mast, such as the trailer
>> sailor.
>> > > >> Sail area is another length of a piece of string. First thing to do
>> > > >> is decide the Bruce number, which is the sq root of the sail area
>> > > >> divided by the cube root of the weight. For Blind Date fully loaded
>> > > >> this is 8,288 lbs and 774 sq' so the BN is 1.4. This would be a
>> good
>> > > >> place to start. Use the weights of known size boats on the
>> harryproa
>> > > >> web page to give you a starting idea of the weight.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I am about to post the latest trailer sailor drawings. I will
>> > > >> relocate yours so people don't get confused.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> regards,
>> > > >> Rob
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:02 AM, Rob Denney
>> <harryproa@.
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> G'day,
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Nothing wrong with a wandering mind, except I have forgotten
>> what we
>> > > >> >> were talking about.......
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> I would definitely make the first project a small one. A
>> dinghy is
>> > > >> >> ideal. Do your infusion test pieces on the glass, then build a
>> > > >> >> melamine table and infuse some 7'6' x 3'6" panels and use
>> these for a
>> > > >> >> dinghy. Or, start with small flat components (hatches, bunk
>> bases,
>> > > >> >> floors) for the boat if you don't need a dinghy.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> You get more bang for your buck the bigger you go, but there
>> are more
>> > > >> >> bucks (and hours) required.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Re having it built elsewhere, have I got a deal for you!
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> During the search for a builder for the charter boat, a kiwi
>> mate of
>> > > >> >> mine moved to Panama (he reckons it is a nicer place to live
>> than NZ)
>> > > >> >> where he is importing boat gear. He and some locals are putting
>> > > >> >> together a proposal for a one stop marine store on the
>> Pacific end of
>> > > >> >> the canal. Starting with a 620 boat marina, sail loft and boat
>> > > >> >> building/repair facility, with a charter fleet to follow.
>> They have
>> > > >> >> just acquired an enormous shed and are very keen to build
>> the charter
>> > > >> >> proa. I have agreed to oversee the construction of the first
>> boat and
>> > > >> >> to make sure their crew know how it is all done. However, it
>> would be
>> > > >> >> better for all concerned if we were to build a smaller
>> version first.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> If this is of interest to you (or anybody else on the list),
>> please
>> > > >> >> let me know. Labour rates are very low, it is a US dollar
>> economy and
>> > > >> >> the local labour is apparently skilled at glass work and keen to
>> > > >> >> learn. No shortage of ships to bring it home on, or you
>> could sail it
>> > > >> >> to the Caribbean, which is one of the advantages for the charter
>> > > boat.
>> > > >> >> The price of the first boat will be as low as we can
>> possibly make
>> > > it.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Container size is as you say, although 9'6" high boxes are
>> available
>> > > >> >> so a windward hull of a 40' harry (which suits your requirements
>> > > >> >> pretty well) could be put in on it's side.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Re me doing drawings. No need as you are doing an excellent
>> job. I
>> > > >> >> would suggest that you do a side view as well, and when you
>> are happy
>> > > >> >> with it, a front one. Stick with block shapes, we can round
>> the edges
>> > > >> >> later. Draw some block people (use your body for
>> measurements, don't
>> > > >> >> forget the feet) and use them to get a feel for standing,
>> sitting and
>> > > >> >> lying down space. When you decide what you want, we can talk
>> about
>> > > >> >> money. The advice is free, I enjoy working with enthusiasts,
>> if for
>> > > >> >> no other reason that they stimulate my thought processes,
>> resulting
>> > > in
>> > > >> >> this case in a much better steering system for the trailer
>> sailor
>> > > >> >> which does not involve long tiller extensions and is not
>> affected by
>> > > >> >> lifting the rudders, a major drama with rope driven wheel
>> systems.
>> > > >> >> More on this later when I have done some drawings.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> You don't need to move to flip the rudders. The water force
>> does it
>> > > >> >> automatically when you shunt. The cockpit will have a pram
>> hood cover
>> > > >> >> (I prefer these to fixed covers as they give more options
>> and are
>> > > >> >> lighter) to keep you dry.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Mike, excellent advice.
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> regards,
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> Rob
>> > > >> >>
>> > > >> >> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Gardner Pomper
>> > > >> >> <gardner@... <gardner%40networkn
>> > > >> >> wrote:
>> > > >> >> > Hi,
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > You are absolutely right, I have let my mind wander again.
>> That is
>> > > >> >> > the
>> > > >> >> > danger, and the beauty, of the idea that you can play with
>> layout
>> > > >> >> > ideas
>> > > >> >> > pretty much independent of the hulls, and fit the
>> appropriate hulls
>> > > >> >> > to
>> > > >> >> > the
>> > > >> >> > layout later.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > The reason I looking at this larger design, is that the "fat"
>> > > >> >> > Elementarry
>> > > >> >> > looks to be 700-1000 hours of work, which might be too
>> much for my
>> > > >> >> > first
>> > > >> >> > project and it sounds like you get more "bang for your
>> buck" (as in
>> > > >> >> > labor
>> > > >> >> > hours) as a proa scales up. With something similar to what
>> I posted
>> > > >> >> > (since
>> > > >> >> > modified), my family could take a week's vacation in
>> Maine, or the
>> > > >> >> > Florida
>> > > >> >> > Keys, or maybe the Bahamas. I could live on it
>> indefinitely (once
>> > > my
>> > > >> >> > family
>> > > >> >> > got fed up with it <grin>).
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > I am trying to get a feel for the time and expense involved in
>> > > >> >> > different
>> > > >> >> > size/function proas. I might even be interested in
>> contracting out
>> > > >> >> > (maybe
>> > > >> >> > wherever the charter proa is being built) to have
>> something like
>> > > this
>> > > >> >> > built
>> > > >> >> > for me. Do you happen to know what the dimension
>> restrictions are
>> > > for
>> > > >> >> > a
>> > > >> >> > shippng container? I think it is a little less than 8' x 40'.
>> > > >> >> > Probably
>> > > >> >> > too
>> > > >> >> > small, but might make shipping from China more practical.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > On the matter of you not doing drawings, I am absolutely
>> glad that
>> > > >> >> > you
>> > > >> >> > aren't. I feel guilty with the time you are spending
>> answering my
>> > > >> >> > questions.
>> > > >> >> > If at any point you think we should make a more formal
>> arrangement,
>> > > >> >> > just
>> > > >> >> > contact me privately.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > On the matter of steering, that seems to be another unresolved
>> > > issue
>> > > >> >> > on
>> > > >> >> > the
>> > > >> >> > larger trailerables. I know you have at least one other person
>> > > >> >> > talking
>> > > >> >> > to
>> > > >> >> > you about this type design. Is the idea to just use
>> *really* long
>> > > >> >> > tiller
>> > > >> >> > extensions. If cruising for a week or two, I am not crazy
>> about
>> > > being
>> > > >> >> > out in
>> > > >> >> > the rain steering, and popping over to the lee hull each
>> time I
>> > > shunt
>> > > >> >> > to
>> > > >> >> > flip the rudders around. Is that what is required? I have
>> no ideas
>> > > >> >> > for
>> > > >> >> > how
>> > > >> >> > to make a remote steering system that would also collapse to
>> > > trailer
>> > > >> >> > width.
>> > > >> >> > That sounds like it might just go off the bounds of too much
>> > > >> >> > complexity.
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > - Gardner
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Rob Denney
>> <harryproa@.
>> > > >
>> > > >> >> > wrote:
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> G'day,
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> Can do it, but this is hardly the day sailing trailer
>> sailer, the
>> > > >> >> >> cabin will ned to be high at the ends so you can sit up
>> in the
>> > > >> >> >> bunks,
>> > > >> >> >> and where do you sit to sail the boat?
>> > > >> >> >> regards,
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> Rob
>> > > >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Gardner Pomper
>> > > >> >> >> <gardner@... <gardner%40networkn
>> > > >> >> >> wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> > Pursuing the idea of making the ww hull a bit longer, I
>> have
>> > > >> >> >> > uploaded
>> > > >> >> >> > another sketch to the file "trailerable Pomper". I am
>> > > deliberately
>> > > >> >> >> > trying to
>> > > >> >> >> > leave as much of the interior of the hull unfinished as
>> I can,
>> > > and
>> > > >> >> >> > (naturally), I need to have standard size bunks. The
>> pop top can
>> > > >> >> >> > have
>> > > >> >> >> > roll
>> > > >> >> >> > down clears for foul weather. The bunks are covered
>> with clear
>> > > >> >> >> > lexan,
>> > > >> >> >> > which
>> > > >> >> >> > can be flipped up to enclose the cockpit when the
>> weather is
>> > > bad,
>> > > >> >> >> > or
>> > > >> >> >> > you
>> > > >> >> >> > want to use them. You enter the bunks from the flip down
>> > > walkway,
>> > > >> >> >> > or
>> > > >> >> >> > over
>> > > >> >> >> > the back of the lazarrette.
>> > > >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> > I don't know that I added much weight, so hopefully we can
>> > > >> >> >> > preserve
>> > > >> >> >> > the
>> > > >> >> >> > 10:1
>> > > >> >> >> > ratio on the ww hull.
>> > > >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> > - Gardner
>> > > >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Rob Denney <
>> > > harryproa@..
>> > > >> >> >> > wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> G'day,
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Preliminary numbers
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> ww hull 5m/15' long, waterline 450mm/18", draft
>> 220mm/8.5",
>> > > >> >> >> >> displacement 640 lbs, prismatic .77. (Use this to
>> allow for the
>> > > >> >> >> >> hull
>> > > >> >> >> >> shape when you multiply the cross sectional area in
>> the middle
>> > > of
>> > > >> >> >> >> the
>> > > >> >> >> >> boat by the length). I would probably go a little
>> longer to
>> > > cope
>> > > >> >> >> >> with your other requirements.
>> > > >> >> >> >> lw hull, as long as you can build, trail, afford and
>> handle.
>> > > The
>> > > >> >> >> >> longer it is, the higher the top speed and the drier
>> and more
>> > > >> >> >> >> comfortable the motion.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> The single sail works well on boats with light
>> windward hulls,
>> > > as
>> > > >> >> >> >> the
>> > > >> >> >> >> rudder is aft, which makes it balanced. With 600 kgs on a
>> > > >> >> >> >> shortish
>> > > >> >> >> >> ww
>> > > >> >> >> >> hull, the ballestron may be a better bet, although
>> once you
>> > > know
>> > > >> >> >> >> how
>> > > >> >> >> >> to shunt, it won't be a problem. With a lot of people
>> on board,
>> > > >> >> >> >> and
>> > > >> >> >> >> not much boom clearance the ballestron needs to be watched
>> > > while
>> > > >> >> >> >> shunting.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> There will be trampolines, which will be on side
>> pieces with a
>> > > >> >> >> >> hinge
>> > > >> >> >> >> in the middle so it can be folded when the boat
>> telescopes. A
>> > > >> >> >> >> walkway can do the same.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Sail is loose footed (attached only to the outboard
>> end of the
>> > > >> >> >> >> boom).
>> > > >> >> >> >> On Elementarry, the boom is attached to the mast. It
>> has a sock
>> > > >> >> >> >> luff,
>> > > >> >> >> >> so this is not a problem. Yours would have slides, so
>> the boom
>> > > >> >> >> >> needs
>> > > >> >> >> >> to rotate relative to the mast, but not move
>> vertically. Not a
>> > > >> >> >> >> big
>> > > >> >> >> >> deal. Your boom will indeed be too long to attach
>> permanently.
>> > > It
>> > > >> >> >> >> will be strapped to the bearing on the mast, again,
>> not a big
>> > > >> >> >> >> deal.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> The hours on the charter boat are for the shell. This
>> one could
>> > > >> >> >> >> take
>> > > >> >> >> >> anywhere from 500-1,000+ hours depending on all the usual
>> > > stuff,
>> > > >> >> >> >> but
>> > > >> >> >> >> mostly on the standard of finish required. There are some
>> > > >> >> >> >> alignment
>> > > >> >> >> >> details to make it telescope smoothly, which could add
>> some
>> > > time.
>> > > >> >> >> >> They are all done before the beams are closed up
>> permanently,
>> > > so
>> > > >> >> >> >> are
>> > > >> >> >> >> not difficult, just might take a while.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Materials cost? Same as the other trailer sailor, give
>> or take
>> > > a
>> > > >> >> >> >> bit.
>> > > >> >> >> >> It is cheaper to import the materials from here. Let
>> me or Raps
>> > > >> >> >> >> know if you want to share the shipping costs.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Could be a single bunk, or the galley and stowage. The
>> double
>> > > is
>> > > >> >> >> >> 6'x5', the single is 5x3. Yours will have the cockpit
>> in this
>> > > >> >> >> >> area.
>> > > >> >> >> >> The toilet at one end of the hull and the galley at
>> the other
>> > > >> >> >> >> end.
>> > > >> >> >> >> Access will be through deck hatches.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Re infusion. Derek's workshops are fantastic, Henny at
>> > > >> >> >> >> http://www.fram.
>> does Steve
>> > > in
>> > > >> >> >> >> Houston, but I don't have his web address. By far the
>> best way
>> > > to
>> > > >> >> >> >> learn about it is:
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Get a vacuum pump from ebay, (old milking pumps, fridge
>> > > >> >> >> >> compressors,
>> > > >> >> >> >> air con evacuators all work) and a sheet of window
>> glass about
>> > > >> >> >> >> 30"
>> > > >> >> >> >> square. Buy some clear builders plastic, some window
>> sealant,
>> > > >> >> >> >> glass,
>> > > >> >> >> >> foam, peel ply and resin, some shade cloth and some 10mm
>> > > plastic
>> > > >> >> >> >> conduit. Drill the smallest holes you can every 4" in
>> the foam
>> > > >> >> >> >> and a
>> > > >> >> >> >> 1/4" hole every 4" in the middle 18" of 2 pieces of 4'
>> lengths
>> > > of
>> > > >> >> >> >> conduit, cut the cloth and peel ply and lay it on the
>> glass
>> > > with
>> > > >> >> >> >> a
>> > > >> >> >> >> 2"
>> > > >> >> >> >> border all the way round. Put the shade cloth on the
>> glass and
>> > > >> >> >> >> wrap
>> > > >> >> >> >> it around the perforated section of the lengths of
>> conduit such
>> > > >> >> >> >> that
>> > > >> >> >> >> one piece is on one side of the job, the other is on the
>> > > opposite
>> > > >> >> >> >> side. Cut a piece of plastic the same size as the
>> glass and
>> > > seal
>> > > >> >> >> >> it
>> > > >> >> >> >> to the glass and around the conduit. Block one end of
>> one piece
>> > > >> >> >> >> of
>> > > >> >> >> >> conduit and hook the other end up to the vac pump.
>> Block both
>> > > >> >> >> >> ends
>> > > >> >> >> >> of the other piece. Check for leaks (listening) is the
>> best
>> > > way.
>> > > >> >> >> >> When it is leak free, unseal the ends of the non
>> vacuum conduit
>> > > >> >> >> >> and
>> > > >> >> >> >> put them in buckets of resin. Prepare to be amazed.
>> When the
>> > > >> >> >> >> infusion is complete (look under the glass aswell as
>> on top),
>> > > >> >> >> >> seal
>> > > >> >> >> >> off
>> > > >> >> >> >> the resin conduit and leave it to cure. You now know
>> more about
>> > > >> >> >> >> infusion than 95% of the world's boatbuilders. Study
>> and weigh
>> > > >> >> >> >> the
>> > > >> >> >> >> sample, and let me know what it looks like and what
>> went wrong
>> > > >> >> >> >> and I
>> > > >> >> >> >> will start lesson 2.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Elementarry as a tender? Could do, but without seats,
>> it is not
>> > > >> >> >> >> very
>> > > >> >> >> >> comfortable. It is also a bit fragile for hauling up
>> beaches
>> > > and
>> > > >> >> >> >> over
>> > > >> >> >> >> rocks. The Torqueedo would work, but rowing wouldn't.
>> No sweat
>> > > on
>> > > >> >> >> >> the payload, but it would all be on the trampoline.
>> You would
>> > > be
>> > > >> >> >> >> better off with a conventional dinghy. Loading El on
>> the cabin
>> > > >> >> >> >> top
>> > > >> >> >> >> for blasting around when you get there has more merit,
>> but the
>> > > >> >> >> >> mother
>> > > >> >> >> >> ship really should be bigger for this.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> Let me know what the next step is, or if I have
>> forgotten to
>> > > >> >> >> >> reply
>> > > >> >> >> >> to
>> > > >> >> >> >> anything.
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> regards,
>> > > >> >> >> >> Rob
>> > > >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Gardner Pomper
>> > > >> >> >> >> <gardner@... <gardner%40networkn
>> > > >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> >> > Hi,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> > Ok, I can tell by the responses that it won't be a
>> small boat
>> > > >> >> >> >> > :( I
>> > > >> >> >> >> > was
>> > > >> >> >> >> > hoping for something smaller than the design that is
>> taking
>> > > >> >> >> >> > shape.
>> > > >> >> >> >> > Since
>> > > >> >> >> >> > that looks to be not true, let me fall back to that
>> one, and
>> > > >> >> >> >> > drop
>> > > >> >> >> >> > the
>> > > >> >> >> >> > weight
>> > > >> >> >> >> > requirements and the 6 passenger (we will only
>> invite people
>> > > on
>> > > >> >> >> >> > a
>> > > >> >> >> >> > nice
>> > > >> >> >> >> > day
>> > > >> >> >> >> > for a few hours. They can sit on the trampolines
>> (there can
>> > > be
>> > > >> >> >> >> > trampolines,
>> > > >> >> >> >> > right?) Then we can design for crew weight of
>> 600lbs, and
>> > > >> >> >> >> > seating
>> > > >> >> >> >> > for
>> > > >> >> >> >> > 3-4.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> > I notice that you are not using the ballestron
>> right. I am
>> > > >> >> >> >> > flouting
>> > > >> >> >> >> > my
>> > > >> >> >> >> > ingorance here, but how can you go upwind with a mast
>> > > centered
>> > > >> >> >> >> > for
>> > > >> >> >> >> > and
>> > > >> >> >> >> > aft
>> > > >> >> >> >> > and no headsail?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> > I was also thinking of a 3-4' flat panel, hinged at the
>> > > floor,
>> > > >> >> >> >> > to
>> > > >> >> >> >> > give
>> > > >> >> >> >> > some
>> > > >> >> >> >> > sort of walkway outside the cockpit. Fold it down
>> once the
>> > > beam
>> > > >> >> >> >> > is
>> > > >> >> >> >> > expanded.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> > Is the sail loose footed? The charter proa talks
>> about the
>> > > boom
>> > > >> >> >> >> > and
>> > > >> >> >> >> > mast
>> > > >> >> >> >> > being one piece, but it would seem to make it too
>> wide for
>> > > >> >> >> >> > trailering.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> > Since you have basics worked out on that trailer
>> sailor, do
>> > > you
>> > > >> >> >> >> > have
>> > > >> >> >> >> > an
>> > > >> >> >> >> > estimate of work hours for an "average" finish? I
>> know you
>> > > have
>> > > >> >> >> >> > mentioned
>> > > >> >> >> >> > 1400 for the charter proa hull (by professionals, I
>> am sure).
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> > There looks to be a single bunk "forward" also. Is
>> that true,
>> > > >> >> >> >> > or
>> > > >> >> >> >> > is
>> > > >> >> >> >> > that
>> > > >> >> >> >> > the
>> > > >> >> >> >> > galley? What are the bunk dimensions?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Rob Denney
>> > > >> >> >> >> > <harryproa@.
>> > > >> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> G'day,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:00 PM, gardnerpomper
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> <gardner@... <gardner%40networkn
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> wrote:
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > Hi,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > Some sort of liveaboard harryproa seems like my next
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > cruising
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > boat. I
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > am interested in both sampling the experience,
>> and finding
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > out
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > if
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > I
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > have the fortitude to build one. I have seen messages
>> > > about
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > a
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > trailerable design and I have some questions
>> specific to
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > using
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > it
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > to
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > "try out" the home build/proa idea.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > Requirements:
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 1) trailerable as other specs (8'6" trailer width,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> easy
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> ><1000lbs with trailer (negotiable)
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Difficult, negotiations can start when i have done some
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> drawings.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 2) build method as similar to proposed charter
>> boat as
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > possible,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > since
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > that is identified as simplest for larger boats
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > fast and easy on/off the trailer. this would be a
>> > > daysailer,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > driving
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 2
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > hours to the water, set it up, sail for a few
>> hours, break
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > it
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > down,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > trailer it 2 hours home.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Easy
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 3) I am heavy (300lbs), so the crew weight (3 of
>> us) would
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > be
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > about
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 550lbs. We would like to be able to invite another 2
>> > > adults
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > and
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > a
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > child and still sail it well, so total crew
>> weight could
>> > > be
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 900
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > lbs.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Difficult, I will see what the minimum size is to
>> do this.
>> > > How
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> much
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> extra for food and safety gear?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 4) Enclosed head
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> easy
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 5) sail without getting wet
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> easy
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 6) camping propane stove
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 7) comfy seats and table to eat at
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Can this be outside, under a removable bimini with
>> roll down
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> sides?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Otherwise, it is a bit ticky for 6 people.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 8) standing headroom (fold down bimini ok)
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> easy
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 9) rain protected
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> easy
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 10) will never be INTENTIONALLY sailed in > 20 kts
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Yeah, right!
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 11) ballestron rig
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> easy
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > I won't be racing, but I will want performance
>> comparable
>> > > to
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > what
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > we
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > have heard from Rare Bird and the charter proa design
>> > > (i.e.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > windspeed
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > up to 15 knots). I *don't* want to fly a hull!! (I'm
>> > > timid)
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Timid is good, but it will be a sizableboat to do
>> this with
>> > > 6
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> people
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> on
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> board.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > Questions:
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 1) What would plan cost be?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> TBA when i see what is involved. Probably
>> $Aus3,000, as it
>> > > is
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> going
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> to be a one off. You get 10% off any future plans
>> sold to
>> > > the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> design until the next one is sailing. After that it
>> is as
>> > > per
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Goodwill Fee on http://www.harrypro
>> Part of
>> > > the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> plans
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> price wil be deducted from the big boat fee.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> 2) would plans include info on resin infusion and
>> building a
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> table,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > etc, etc? Or at least point me to such info?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> yes. As much information as you need on anything in the
>> > > plans.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 2) Estimated build time (novice.. experienced with
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > epoxy/fiberglass,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > even some with carbon mat as reinforement, but
>> never built
>> > > a
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > boat).
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > If
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > you prefer, you can supply "average estimated
>> build" and I
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > will
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > put
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > in
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > my own "idiot factor" multiplier
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> TBA, but mostly it will depend on the level of
>> finish inside
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> and
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> outside that you require.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 3) Would it be close to the "trailer sailer"
>> layout jpg I
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > see
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > posted
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > in the forums?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Not if you want a cockpit for 6, which will replace the
>> > > bunks
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >What are hull lengths?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Long! What is the longest you can build, trailer
>> and handle
>> > > on
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> ramp?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 4) When could I start? I have a building
>> available this
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > summer/fall,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > but it is not heated
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Tomorrow, building the table. You won't get all the
>> plans
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> immediately, but i will keep ahead of your
>> progress. Pay for
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> half
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> plans up front, the rest before the last drawings
>> arrive.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > 5) material cost? availablity?
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Not a huge amount, probably less than the resale
>> value of
>> > > the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> boat.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Can get it from your local supplier, apart from the
>> carbon
>> > > for
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> the
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> mast, boom, rudders and beams which I will supply from
>> > > Texas.
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > BTW, I live in Pennsylvania (US).
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> No problem ;-)
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > Thanks,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> > - Gardner
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> My pleasure,
>> > > >> >> >> >> >>
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> Rob
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
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