G'day,
On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:05 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow.
> When you mentioned that the 40' Harry met most of my criteria, I went back
> and checked it. It is amazing that I had not noticed that my feature creep
> had come up with almost exactly the same set of accomodations, etc.
Great minds think alike! ;-)
>
> I am still looking at 2 main differences from the existing design. One is
> trailerability, in a reasonably easy fashion. I have gone far beyond the 10
> minute setup of the Elementarry, but hopefully I am still in the 2 hour
> range.
If the 2 hulls side by side are withing the trailerable limit, then 2
hours should be possible. The mast is pretty quick, the sail can stay
on the boom, the beams are very quick and the rudders are in place.
The trampoline is a huge time waster, but if it is in a frame, then it
is pretty quick as well.
> The other is trying to fully exploit all the ideas I have heard for reducing
> the labor requirements in order to reduce the price. I have moved the head
> into the windward hull, for some privacy, but I am still concentrating on
> not finishing the interior of either hull, and building everything up on
> deck on a flat surface, with mostly right angles.
> I have uploaded the latest (final? ha ha) set of drawings. I have added a
> second set to show how it would fit on a trailer and into a container. Both
> set in the "Gardners layouts" folder.
> I am really resting this whole design approach on significant savings from
> the construction techniques over the way that 'Aroha' was built. I am
> curious if you have information or an estimate on the number of hours for
> those build techniques, compared to building the hulls from 2 flat panels,
> and leaving all accomodations on deck. I have also eliminated any compound
> curves from my design, so flat panel construction should be as fast as
> possible. If there are any other ways to save time, i would love to hear
> them.
Music to my ears! There are some other building tricks, but they are
a bit complicated to get into here. Cutting and joining straight
walls to flat floors and ceilings is very simple, with none of the
filleting tabbing and finishing usually required.
> In terms of the trailering, I have managed to fit the boat and detachable
> bows on a trailer, with folding tramp netting, like you suggested, except in
> a total of 4 panels. To make it fit in a container, I need to eliminate the
> trailer and store the tramp netting under the support for the boat. All this
> is a tight fit, so I might be totally wrong, just because I am not
> accounting for the thickness of various panels, but hopefully it could all
> be swizzled to work if we go ahead with real plans.
> In terms of performance, the rig is still unspecified, but these are the
> figures I come up with, as best I can:
> ww lw
> length : 28.5 ft 50 ft
> w/l beam: 2.25 ft 2 ft
> prismatic: 0.77 0.77 (just copied what you said)
> length/beam ratio: 12.6:1 25:1
> displacement: 2766 lbs 3773 lbs
> weight: 1000 lbs 500 lbs (ww hull only weight is 434
> lbs)
> As I am sure you note, I copied the 40' harry almost exactly, except
> extended it 10', with removeable bows.
> Any thoughts, particularly on the relative construction times of this vs the
> Harry 40 would be appreciated. Certainly yours is much prettier, but I am
> going after the most boat for the least money.
Aroha was owner built under our supervision. No record of the hours
were kept. Also, the builder was in no hurry, so even if they were,
they would not be reliable. I would need to sit down and do a
spread sheet to sort out the materials and hours. Things like making
pop tops watertight and easily raised/lowered are imponderables, but
the basic boat should be a very quick build.
regards,
Rob
>
> Thanks much!
> - Gardner
> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:02 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.
>>
>> G'day,
>>
>> Nothing wrong with a wandering mind, except I have forgotten what we
>> were talking about.......
>>
>> I would definitely make the first project a small one. A dinghy is
>> ideal. Do your infusion test pieces on the glass, then build a
>> melamine table and infuse some 7'6' x 3'6" panels and use these for a
>> dinghy. Or, start with small flat components (hatches, bunk bases,
>> floors) for the boat if you don't need a dinghy.
>>
>> You get more bang for your buck the bigger you go, but there are more
>> bucks (and hours) required.
>>
>> Re having it built elsewhere, have I got a deal for you!
>>
>> During the search for a builder for the charter boat, a kiwi mate of
>> mine moved to Panama (he reckons it is a nicer place to live than NZ)
>> where he is importing boat gear. He and some locals are putting
>> together a proposal for a one stop marine store on the Pacific end of
>> the canal. Starting with a 620 boat marina, sail loft and boat
>> building/repair facility, with a charter fleet to follow. They have
>> just acquired an enormous shed and are very keen to build the charter
>> proa. I have agreed to oversee the construction of the first boat and
>> to make sure their crew know how it is all done. However, it would be
>> better for all concerned if we were to build a smaller version first.
>>
>> If this is of interest to you (or anybody else on the list), please
>> let me know. Labour rates are very low, it is a US dollar economy and
>> the local labour is apparently skilled at glass work and keen to
>> learn. No shortage of ships to bring it home on, or you could sail it
>> to the Caribbean, which is one of the advantages for the charter boat.
>> The price of the first boat will be as low as we can possibly make it.
>>
>> Container size is as you say, although 9'6" high boxes are available
>> so a windward hull of a 40' harry (which suits your requirements
>> pretty well) could be put in on it's side.
>>
>> Re me doing drawings. No need as you are doing an excellent job. I
>> would suggest that you do a side view as well, and when you are happy
>> with it, a front one. Stick with block shapes, we can round the edges
>> later. Draw some block people (use your body for measurements, don't
>> forget the feet) and use them to get a feel for standing, sitting and
>> lying down space. When you decide what you want, we can talk about
>> money. The advice is free, I enjoy working with enthusiasts, if for
>> no other reason that they stimulate my thought processes, resulting in
>> this case in a much better steering system for the trailer sailor
>> which does not involve long tiller extensions and is not affected by
>> lifting the rudders, a major drama with rope driven wheel systems.
>> More on this later when I have done some drawings.
>>
>> You don't need to move to flip the rudders. The water force does it
>> automatically when you shunt. The cockpit will have a pram hood cover
>> (I prefer these to fixed covers as they give more options and are
>> lighter) to keep you dry.
>>
>> Mike, excellent advice.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow.
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > You are absolutely right, I have let my mind wander again. That is the
>> > danger, and the beauty, of the idea that you can play with layout ideas
>> > pretty much independent of the hulls, and fit the appropriate hulls to
>> > the
>> > layout later.
>> >
>> > The reason I looking at this larger design, is that the "fat"
>> > Elementarry
>> > looks to be 700-1000 hours of work, which might be too much for my first
>> > project and it sounds like you get more "bang for your buck" (as in
>> > labor
>> > hours) as a proa scales up. With something similar to what I posted
>> > (since
>> > modified), my family could take a week's vacation in Maine, or the
>> > Florida
>> > Keys, or maybe the Bahamas. I could live on it indefinitely (once my
>> > family
>> > got fed up with it <grin>).
>> >
>> > I am trying to get a feel for the time and expense involved in different
>> > size/function proas. I might even be interested in contracting out
>> > (maybe
>> > wherever the charter proa is being built) to have something like this
>> > built
>> > for me. Do you happen to know what the dimension restrictions are for a
>> > shippng container? I think it is a little less than 8' x 40'. Probably
>> > too
>> > small, but might make shipping from China more practical.
>> >
>> > On the matter of you not doing drawings, I am absolutely glad that you
>> > aren't. I feel guilty with the time you are spending answering my
>> > questions.
>> > If at any point you think we should make a more formal arrangement, just
>> > contact me privately.
>> >
>> > On the matter of steering, that seems to be another unresolved issue on
>> > the
>> > larger trailerables. I know you have at least one other person talking
>> > to
>> > you about this type design. Is the idea to just use *really* long tiller
>> > extensions. If cruising for a week or two, I am not crazy about being
>> > out in
>> > the rain steering, and popping over to the lee hull each time I shunt to
>> > flip the rudders around. Is that what is required? I have no ideas for
>> > how
>> > to make a remote steering system that would also collapse to trailer
>> > width.
>> > That sounds like it might just go off the bounds of too much complexity.
>> >
>> > - Gardner
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> G'day,
>> >>
>> >> Can do it, but this is hardly the day sailing trailer sailer, the
>> >> cabin will ned to be high at the ends so you can sit up in the bunks,
>> >> and where do you sit to sail the boat?
>> >> regards,
>> >>
>> >> Rob
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Gardner Pomper
>> >> <gardner@networknow.
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Pursuing the idea of making the ww hull a bit longer, I have uploaded
>> >> > another sketch to the file "trailerable Pomper". I am deliberately
>> >> > trying to
>> >> > leave as much of the interior of the hull unfinished as I can, and
>> >> > (naturally), I need to have standard size bunks. The pop top can have
>> >> > roll
>> >> > down clears for foul weather. The bunks are covered with clear lexan,
>> >> > which
>> >> > can be flipped up to enclose the cockpit when the weather is bad, or
>> >> > you
>> >> > want to use them. You enter the bunks from the flip down walkway, or
>> >> > over
>> >> > the back of the lazarrette.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't know that I added much weight, so hopefully we can preserve
>> >> > the
>> >> > 10:1
>> >> > ratio on the ww hull.
>> >> >
>> >> > - Gardner
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> G'day,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Preliminary numbers
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ww hull 5m/15' long, waterline 450mm/18", draft 220mm/8.5",
>> >> >> displacement 640 lbs, prismatic .77. (Use this to allow for the hull
>> >> >> shape when you multiply the cross sectional area in the middle of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> boat by the length). I would probably go a little longer to cope
>> >> >> with your other requirements.
>> >> >> lw hull, as long as you can build, trail, afford and handle. The
>> >> >> longer it is, the higher the top speed and the drier and more
>> >> >> comfortable the motion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The single sail works well on boats with light windward hulls, as
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> rudder is aft, which makes it balanced. With 600 kgs on a shortish
>> >> >> ww
>> >> >> hull, the ballestron may be a better bet, although once you know how
>> >> >> to shunt, it won't be a problem. With a lot of people on board, and
>> >> >> not much boom clearance the ballestron needs to be watched while
>> >> >> shunting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There will be trampolines, which will be on side pieces with a hinge
>> >> >> in the middle so it can be folded when the boat telescopes. A
>> >> >> walkway can do the same.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sail is loose footed (attached only to the outboard end of the
>> >> >> boom).
>> >> >> On Elementarry, the boom is attached to the mast. It has a sock
>> >> >> luff,
>> >> >> so this is not a problem. Yours would have slides, so the boom needs
>> >> >> to rotate relative to the mast, but not move vertically. Not a big
>> >> >> deal. Your boom will indeed be too long to attach permanently. It
>> >> >> will be strapped to the bearing on the mast, again, not a big deal.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The hours on the charter boat are for the shell. This one could take
>> >> >> anywhere from 500-1,000+ hours depending on all the usual stuff, but
>> >> >> mostly on the standard of finish required. There are some alignment
>> >> >> details to make it telescope smoothly, which could add some time.
>> >> >> They are all done before the beams are closed up permanently, so are
>> >> >> not difficult, just might take a while.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Materials cost? Same as the other trailer sailor, give or take a
>> >> >> bit.
>> >> >> It is cheaper to import the materials from here. Let me or Raps
>> >> >> know if you want to share the shipping costs.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Could be a single bunk, or the galley and stowage. The double is
>> >> >> 6'x5', the single is 5x3. Yours will have the cockpit in this area.
>> >> >> The toilet at one end of the hull and the galley at the other end.
>> >> >> Access will be through deck hatches.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Re infusion. Derek's workshops are fantastic, Henny at
>> >> >> http://www.fram.
>> >> >> Houston, but I don't have his web address. By far the best way to
>> >> >> learn about it is:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Get a vacuum pump from ebay, (old milking pumps, fridge compressors,
>> >> >> air con evacuators all work) and a sheet of window glass about 30"
>> >> >> square. Buy some clear builders plastic, some window sealant, glass,
>> >> >> foam, peel ply and resin, some shade cloth and some 10mm plastic
>> >> >> conduit. Drill the smallest holes you can every 4" in the foam and a
>> >> >> 1/4" hole every 4" in the middle 18" of 2 pieces of 4' lengths of
>> >> >> conduit, cut the cloth and peel ply and lay it on the glass with a
>> >> >> 2"
>> >> >> border all the way round. Put the shade cloth on the glass and wrap
>> >> >> it around the perforated section of the lengths of conduit such that
>> >> >> one piece is on one side of the job, the other is on the opposite
>> >> >> side. Cut a piece of plastic the same size as the glass and seal it
>> >> >> to the glass and around the conduit. Block one end of one piece of
>> >> >> conduit and hook the other end up to the vac pump. Block both ends
>> >> >> of the other piece. Check for leaks (listening) is the best way.
>> >> >> When it is leak free, unseal the ends of the non vacuum conduit and
>> >> >> put them in buckets of resin. Prepare to be amazed. When the
>> >> >> infusion is complete (look under the glass aswell as on top), seal
>> >> >> off
>> >> >> the resin conduit and leave it to cure. You now know more about
>> >> >> infusion than 95% of the world's boatbuilders. Study and weigh the
>> >> >> sample, and let me know what it looks like and what went wrong and I
>> >> >> will start lesson 2.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Elementarry as a tender? Could do, but without seats, it is not very
>> >> >> comfortable. It is also a bit fragile for hauling up beaches and
>> >> >> over
>> >> >> rocks. The Torqueedo would work, but rowing wouldn't. No sweat on
>> >> >> the payload, but it would all be on the trampoline. You would be
>> >> >> better off with a conventional dinghy. Loading El on the cabin top
>> >> >> for blasting around when you get there has more merit, but the
>> >> >> mother
>> >> >> ship really should be bigger for this.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Let me know what the next step is, or if I have forgotten to reply
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> anything.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> regards,
>> >> >> Rob
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:57 PM, Gardner Pomper
>> >> >> <gardner@networknow.
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Ok, I can tell by the responses that it won't be a small boat :( I
>> >> >> > was
>> >> >> > hoping for something smaller than the design that is taking shape.
>> >> >> > Since
>> >> >> > that looks to be not true, let me fall back to that one, and drop
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > weight
>> >> >> > requirements and the 6 passenger (we will only invite people on a
>> >> >> > nice
>> >> >> > day
>> >> >> > for a few hours. They can sit on the trampolines (there can be
>> >> >> > trampolines,
>> >> >> > right?) Then we can design for crew weight of 600lbs, and seating
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > 3-4.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I notice that you are not using the ballestron right. I am
>> >> >> > flouting
>> >> >> > my
>> >> >> > ingorance here, but how can you go upwind with a mast centered for
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > aft
>> >> >> > and no headsail?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I was also thinking of a 3-4' flat panel, hinged at the floor, to
>> >> >> > give
>> >> >> > some
>> >> >> > sort of walkway outside the cockpit. Fold it down once the beam is
>> >> >> > expanded.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Is the sail loose footed? The charter proa talks about the boom
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > mast
>> >> >> > being one piece, but it would seem to make it too wide for
>> >> >> > trailering.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Since you have basics worked out on that trailer sailor, do you
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > an
>> >> >> > estimate of work hours for an "average" finish? I know you have
>> >> >> > mentioned
>> >> >> > 1400 for the charter proa hull (by professionals, I am sure).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > There looks to be a single bunk "forward" also. Is that true, or
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > galley? What are the bunk dimensions?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> G'day,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 11:00 PM, gardnerpomper
>> >> >> >> <gardner@networknow.
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Some sort of liveaboard harryproa seems like my next cruising
>> >> >> >> > boat. I
>> >> >> >> > am interested in both sampling the experience, and finding out
>> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> > I
>> >> >> >> > have the fortitude to build one. I have seen messages about a
>> >> >> >> > trailerable design and I have some questions specific to using
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > "try out" the home build/proa idea.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Requirements:
>> >> >> >> > 1) trailerable as other specs (8'6" trailer width,
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> ><1000lbs with trailer (negotiable)
>> >> >> >> Difficult, negotiations can start when i have done some drawings.
>> >> >> >> > 2) build method as similar to proposed charter boat as
>> >> >> >> > possible,
>> >> >> >> > since
>> >> >> >> > that is identified as simplest for larger boats
>> >> >> >> > fast and easy on/off the trailer. this would be a daysailer,
>> >> >> >> > driving
>> >> >> >> > 2
>> >> >> >> > hours to the water, set it up, sail for a few hours, break it
>> >> >> >> > down,
>> >> >> >> > trailer it 2 hours home.
>> >> >> >> Easy
>> >> >> >> > 3) I am heavy (300lbs), so the crew weight (3 of us) would be
>> >> >> >> > about
>> >> >> >> > 550lbs. We would like to be able to invite another 2 adults and
>> >> >> >> > a
>> >> >> >> > child and still sail it well, so total crew weight could be 900
>> >> >> >> > lbs.
>> >> >> >> Difficult, I will see what the minimum size is to do this. How
>> >> >> >> much
>> >> >> >> extra for food and safety gear?
>> >> >> >> > 4) Enclosed head
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 5) sail without getting wet
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 6) camping propane stove
>> >> >> >> > 7) comfy seats and table to eat at
>> >> >> >> Can this be outside, under a removable bimini with roll down
>> >> >> >> sides?
>> >> >> >> Otherwise, it is a bit ticky for 6 people.
>> >> >> >> > 8) standing headroom (fold down bimini ok)
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 9) rain protected
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> > 10) will never be INTENTIONALLY sailed in > 20 kts
>> >> >> >> Yeah, right!
>> >> >> >> > 11) ballestron rig
>> >> >> >> easy
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I won't be racing, but I will want performance comparable to
>> >> >> >> > what
>> >> >> >> > we
>> >> >> >> > have heard from Rare Bird and the charter proa design (i.e.
>> >> >> >> > windspeed
>> >> >> >> > up to 15 knots). I *don't* want to fly a hull!! (I'm timid)
>> >> >> >> Timid is good, but it will be a sizableboat to do this with 6
>> >> >> >> people
>> >> >> >> on
>> >> >> >> board.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Questions:
>> >> >> >> > 1) What would plan cost be?
>> >> >> >> TBA when i see what is involved. Probably $Aus3,000, as it is
>> >> >> >> going
>> >> >> >> to be a one off. You get 10% off any future plans sold to the
>> >> >> >> design until the next one is sailing. After that it is as per the
>> >> >> >> Goodwill Fee on http://www.harrypro
>> >> >> >> plans
>> >> >> >> price wil be deducted from the big boat fee.
>> >> >> >> 2) would plans include info on resin infusion and building a
>> >> >> >> table,
>> >> >> >> > etc, etc? Or at least point me to such info?
>> >> >> >> yes. As much information as you need on anything in the plans.
>> >> >> >> > 2) Estimated build time (novice.. experienced with
>> >> >> >> > epoxy/fiberglass,
>> >> >> >> > even some with carbon mat as reinforement, but never built a
>> >> >> >> > boat).
>> >> >> >> > If
>> >> >> >> > you prefer, you can supply "average estimated build" and I will
>> >> >> >> > put
>> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> > my own "idiot factor" multiplier
>> >> >> >> TBA, but mostly it will depend on the level of finish inside and
>> >> >> >> outside that you require.
>> >> >> >> > 3) Would it be close to the "trailer sailer" layout jpg I see
>> >> >> >> > posted
>> >> >> >> > in the forums?
>> >> >> >> Not if you want a cockpit for 6, which will replace the bunks
>> >> >> >> >What are hull lengths?
>> >> >> >> Long! What is the longest you can build, trailer and handle on
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> ramp?
>> >> >> >> > 4) When could I start? I have a building available this
>> >> >> >> > summer/fall,
>> >> >> >> > but it is not heated
>> >> >> >> Tomorrow, building the table. You won't get all the plans
>> >> >> >> immediately, but i will keep ahead of your progress. Pay for half
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> plans up front, the rest before the last drawings arrive.
>> >> >> >> > 5) material cost? availablity?
>> >> >> >> Not a huge amount, probably less than the resale value of the
>> >> >> >> boat.
>> >> >> >> Can get it from your local supplier, apart from the carbon for
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> mast, boom, rudders and beams which I will supply from Texas.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > BTW, I live in Pennsylvania (US).
>> >> >> >> No problem ;-)
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Thanks,
>> >> >> >> > - Gardner
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> My pleasure,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Rob
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
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