Your videos and testing got me to think again the rig
You share some ideas with other people on the proa leading edge.
In this case, with Fritz Roth, who designed and sails the vector fin
proa:
http://proadesign.
I strongly considered his design at one point, but there were two
showstopper problems for me.
The first was that the mast would not do well if caught aback, which
could be solved with a good harryproa design for the mast, hull, and
beams (though the mast does intrude on living space).
The second, as Rob has pointed out, is that the wonderfully-
Neither of these problems has to do with the rig, which has proven to
be fast and useful. At least in Fritz' own unique description. He's a
bit flaky, and his idea of debate is simply ridiculing his opposition
without any real data, but he is out there building and sailing his own
designs, so in my book he deserves a certain measure of respect.
My personal reason not to use a main with staysails is that it forces
you to use a small-roach mainsail in order to fit inside the stays.
It's not the end of the world, but it does cut down on sail area high
up. As Garry Hoyt, the designer for the Alerion Express 33, went with
a taller full-roach mainsail and a self-tacking jib because, in his
argument, this presents as much sail area as the genoa would have added
to the mix, and it keeps that area high up where it will do the most
good.
(todd -- that obviously works towards your argument to use the tall
single sail instead of the schooner rig).
But that doesn't stop it from being effective. You could get a lot
of sail area, with a low center of effort, with thin-luff leading
edges, using one or more staysails.
The designer of the Mast Aft gamefishing catamaran (
http://www.runningt
- Mike
Arto Hakkarainen wrote:
issue. Having furling staysails is easy, light,
effective and elegant. All very good features. Having
two sails is more effective and gives more chances to
have the sails adjusted to windspeed. Of course having
less strings to pull makes shunting faster and easier
so one sail has its merits. Unless of course there is
not two inner staysails but one middle sail that is
fast and easy to shunt.
Following this line of thought I got an idea that may
be totally crazy. Why not have to large staysails on
furlers, one on each end of the boat. Then in the
middle would be either dynarig, bolger sail or similar
that would be clearly smaller than the staysail,
perhaps 1/2 of the staysail size. Then according to
studies on sail interaction the smaller sail in the
middle should make the staysail in front of it even
more effective than it would be alone and each sail
would be smaller and more easily managed size. Then
the lines to pull while shunting would be the big long
sheet for staysail and the other a faster shunting
bolger/dyna/
Now add to this 360 rotating rudders and possibility
to connect two furlers so that one sail unfurling
furls the other. That should make shunting relatively
easy.
May be I should quit my day job and become inventor :D
Comments welcome.
Arto
--- tsstproa <bitme1234@yahoo.
> Just to let you know the smaller blue easyrig is
> about 25-30%
> smaller than orange crab claw. The large claw seemed
> to balance
> better on the proa better than the smaller esyrig
> with same size
> boards.
>
> Nothing wrong with larger boards. Different solution
> to the problem.
>
> Hate to bring this up specially on here but the only
> proa I know of
> using modern stayed mast Is Russell Brown. They seem
> to work. Not
> tring to steer up the hornets nest.
>
> What I was thinking for the staysail rig Is having
> two sails at each
> end on off set planes one closest to bow inline with
> main hull
> second sail back from bow set further to windward
> off center line
> from hull.
>
> But I'd rather use my Aframe and double Aframe rig.
>
> Todd
>
> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> Hakkarainen <ahakkara@..
> wrote:
> >
> > It seems that the crab claw moves faster in video
> > showing balestron and crab claw side by side. Not
> big
> > difference but that's how it looks on the video.
> >
> > I agree totally that proa rig needs new thinking.
> All
> > traditional solutions have their problems.
> Combination
> > of some features may bring the best solution.
> >
> > I agree that staysail only rig has a lot of merit
> in
> > proa. Off the self products, easy to use furling
> > sails, good power are all very good properties.
> > Structurally the mast to windward rig will produce
> > large forces on the boat. Heavy compression and
> > bending forces will be the result, which will
> require
> > stronger structure. Is it worth it? I don't know.
> > Experiments will tell.
> >
> > Arto
> >
> >
> > --- tsstproa <bitme1234@.
> >
> > > In the video
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://youtube.
> > >
> > > The easy rig and claw on harry style model was
> same
> > > day testing.
> > > Test in roughly the same wind conditions. Notice
> at
> > > the end of video
> > > a little larger sail on a deep vee hull form
> proa ,
> > > speed, wake and
> > > the freeness in which it truly flies through
> water
> > > and wind.
> > >
> > > I think in seeking super high pointing ability
> at
> > > wind speed or
> > > better from a more traditional western rig ex.
> sloop
> > > type or similar
> > > you're going to need a large high buoyant LWH.
> At a
> > > size equivalent
> > > as large as or larger than a traditional Pacific
> > > Proa main hull. The
> > > only way I see getting around this is with a
> none
> > > traditional rig in
> > > both senses. Not pacific tradition or western
> > > tradition. Not saying
> > > this is a solution but just my attempt at the
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > http://youtube.
> > > http://youtube.
> > > http://youtube.
> > >
> > >
> > > In the clips above the approach may seem
> complicated
> > > and not proven
> > > to heavy etc.... all the above and more from
> > > skeptics. But an easier
> > > solution that some maybe able to wrapped the
> head
> > > around is the mast
> > > aft concept and having stay sails. But instead
> of
> > > mast aft, have
> > > mast to weather on a proa configuration set at
> > > determined distance
> > > with stay sails at each bow on roller furling.
> You
> > > don't get the
> > > flexibility of the Aframe rig but close enough
> and
> > > with proven
> > > equipment all ready on the market. Except
> possible
> > > sail design for
> > > stay sails on this type of craft.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > > Hakkarainen <ahakkara@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Todd,
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > > But on to the subject.
> > > >
> > > > I fully agree with your ideas on placing rig
> CoE
> > > > forward to make sail balance better. The
> reports
> > > on
> > > > lot of pressure on aft rudder have made me
> think
> > > of
> > > > alternative rigs to easyrig. The crab claw and
> > > gibbons
> > > > seem to work well in smaller proas being
> effective
> > > > rigs and placing sails forward to bow, but
> scaling
> > > > them up to harry or visionarry size seems
> quite
> > > > problematic.
> > > >
> > > > All my sailing experience tells me that boat
> > > should be
> > > > well balanced. Easyrig seems very easy to
> handle
> > > but
> > > > the rig/rudders combination doesn't seem
> balanced
> > > to
> > > > me. Reports on the heavy pressure on aft
> rudder
> > > > indicate that this is the case. Having better
> > > balance
> > > > should also help to improve performance by
> > > reducing
> > > > the forces needed to counter the forces caused
> by
> > > > unbalance between sails and foils. In greater
> > > speeds
> > > > this could be quite a big factor.
> > > >
> > > > What worries me regarding the crab claw and
> > > gibbons is
> > > > lack of knowledge and experience on those.
> That is
> > > why
> > > > I was so interested in your experiments. And
> > > handling
> > > > of those rigs with crew of one or two persons
> may
> > > be
> > > > too much.
> > > >
> > > > But I guess it takes considerable amount of
> > > testing
> > > > and trial & error to get it right. I'm glad
> there
> > > are
> > > > others gathering experience and information
> too.
> > > >
> > > > Arto
> > > >
> > > > --- tsstproa <bitme1234@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Okay
> > > > > ****
>
=== message truncated ===
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