Have not done it yet, but wil be on harriette, which starts as soon as
the materials (Polycore and basalt cloth) arrive. Will be less
messing around than putting them aft of the beam, assuming the kick up
system works.
regards,
Rob
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.
> Did I miss something regarding beam mounted rudders - when would you put it
> through the beam as opposed to on the back sideof it?
>
> --- On Mon, 16/6/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.
>
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: harry mast tube/ rig
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou
> Date: Monday, 16 June, 2008, 4:09 PM
>
> G'day,
> It wasn't, although there was also the issue of spreading the load
> over a greater area of hull. Future boats will have square beams,
> except if they have to be wide enough to fit the mast or rudders
> through.
>
> regards,
>
> rob
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> worrying over looks versus functionality and saving of cost/weight. That
>> doesn't sound like you.
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 14/6/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com>
>> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: harry mast tube/ rig
>> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>> Date: Saturday, 14 June, 2008, 5:42 PM
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 5:38 PM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Rob,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Still not sure what you are on about - why not just have the bearing tube
>>> on its own?
>>
>> Cost. A metre of 10mm wall UMPWE is not cheap.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Was sort of giving you a decision to help make on the beam overall and
>>> the
>>> mast if using a gami ww hull. Sounds like you suggest the harry overall
>>> beam
>>> and rig. I guess that is the idea, to get max speed out of it. It would
>>> be
>>> much more responsive than the harry, especially with polycore.
>>
>> Won't be a whole lot lighter from Polycore, but wil be quicker and
>> easier to build. Beam overall and mast height are what I used, there
>> is scope for adjusting them if required.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, I got rhino to work, so can see the nice drawings now.
>>
>> Excellent! If you do any fancy renderings, I will put them on the web
>> page.
>>>
>>> And I see that the beams/bridgedeck are 58% of lw hull length, compared
>>> to
>>> 43% on elementarry. So steering is not bound to be much worse if mounted
>>> off
>>> from beams. So sorry for dissing that idea. It would save a little foam
>>> too.
>>
>> No need to apologise. The beams are such a handy place to put the
>> rudders, it would be silly not to take advantage.
>>
>> Re the beam height and width. Wider than deep was an aesthetic
>> decision. Deeper than wide makes more sense structurally.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 12/6/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com>
>>> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: harry mast tube/ rig
>>> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>>> Date: Thursday, 12 June, 2008, 6:08 PM
>>>
>>> Beams are 200 high, 300 wide, mast is 12m long, boom 5.7m.
>>>
>>> The bearing is solidly mounted in the deck and on the keel. The other
>>> tube
>>> is bonded to the underside of the deck and the keel. The outer tube can
>>> be
>>> as big as you like and plays no structural part in the design.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> Rob,
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On the subject.
>>>>
>>>> With a gami ww hull, what rig and beam sizes would suit. Assuming at
>>>> least 12m lw hull?
>>>>
>>>> So the bearing is abother plastic tube inside the first one?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>>> Perth WA
>>>>
>>>> Paid for harry/harrigami/ visionarry polycore planset
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Thu, 12/6/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: harry mast tube
>>>> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>>>> Date: Thursday, 12 June, 2008, 1:23 PM
>>>>
>>>> G'day,
>>>> Could use pvc pipe, but it is hard to get it to stick properly,
>>>> especially if it ever gets a knock from someone moving around in the
>>>> hull. Also a bit tricky to fit it in between the bearings. The deck
>>>> collar is a better bet, except if the boat capsizes, when waves might
>>>> get under it and fill the middle section of the hull.
>>>>
>>>> Doug,
>>>> The bearings are UHMWPE plastic, turned on a lathe. Balls would have
>>>> too big a point loading, unless the bearing diameter was very large.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > I'd go belts and braces to keep sand out of the bearings along with
>>>> > providing the extra security. If the tube is merely to keep water out,
>>>> > why not a piece of PVC pipe
>>>> > Robert
>>>> >
>>>> > in--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@. ..>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >> The plastic outer shell of the bearings are bonded into the hull.
>>>> > The inner
>>>> >> shell is the mast built up to round using epoxy, cab o sil and
>>>> > graphite and
>>>> >> the outer shell as a mould. The tube goes between deck and floor to
>>>> > keep any
>>>> >> water that gets in, out of the hull. Another option is a neoprene or
>>>> >> fibreglass boot that is attached around the mast and diverts water
>>>> > away from
>>>> >> the hole.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> regards,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> rob
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:39 PM, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > What do the bearings attach to the inside of the tube or the mast?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --- On *Tue, 10/6/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@. ..>* wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > From: Rob Denney <harryproa@. ..>
>>>> >> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] harry mast tube
>>>> >> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>>>> >> > Date: Tuesday, 10 June, 2008, 12:10 PM
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > G'day,
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > mast dia at deck level is 165mm, plus 10mm each side for the
>>>> > bearing, so
>>>> >> > the tube is 185mm dia. It can be whatever glass you have lying
>>>> > round, but
>>>> >> > do two layers so it is waterproof. It's only purpose is to keep
>>>> > water out
>>>> >> > of the hull. On El the pipe is also the bearing. You could try
>>>> > this on
>>>> >> > harry, but I suspect it will wear
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > regards,
>>>> >> > Rob through pretty quickly.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.
>>>> > co.uk<doha720@ ...>>
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> Hi Rob,
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> What is the diameter of the tube in the hull for the harry ast?
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> What cloth covering?
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Is the palstic pipe basically the same thing as elementarry?
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Doug
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> PS maybe I could get you to print the 3DM files (just on a4) and
>>>> > I 'll
>>>> >> >> pick them up.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> --- On *Mon, 9/6/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com<harryproa@
>>>> >> >> ...>
>>>> >> >> >* wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com <harryproa@. ..>>
>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Trailer proa
>>>> >> >> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au <harryproa@yahoogro u ps.com.au>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Date: Monday, 9 June, 2008, 11:27 AM
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> G'day,
>>>> >> >> The shaft in the rudder is rectangular, the shaft through the beam
>>>> >> >> is
>>>> >> >> square, or else the beam has to be too wide.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Flip over tiller is no problem, but steering with it may be as it
>>>> > gets
>>>> >> >> confusing. Should be a pretty rare occurence, so no big deal.
>>>> >> >> Not sure that having it over the tramp while sailing is a good
>>>> > idea, as it
>>>> >> >> may get sat on.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> regards,
>>>> >> >> rob
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co.
>>>> > uk<cateran1949@ ...>>
>>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>> Considering loads, wouldn't it be better to make it more oblong?
>>>> >> >>> Rectangular certainly makes it easier to make straight and to
>>>> >> >>> attach
>>>> >> >>> a rudder shaft compared to round.
>>>> >> >>> I prefer this system as the foils can be tucked under the beams
>>>> >> >>> when
>>>> >> >>> going through waves.
>>>> >> >>> I was thinking about having the tiller on a horizontal pivot so
>>>> >> >>> that
>>>> >> >>> it can face aft coming and going
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> Robert
>>>> >> >>> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>>>> > <harryproa%40yahoog roups.com. au>,
>>>> >> >>> "Rob Denney" <harryproa@ .> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > G,day,
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > The shaft is square, so the line can be lead up through a
>>>> >> >>> pulley/fairlead
>>>> >> >>> > on the front of the rudder shaft and through the bog which
>>>> > makes it
>>>> >> >>> round.
>>>> >> >>> > Pull up should not be necessary as drag and buoyancy should do
>>>> >> >>> > the
>>>> >> >>> trick.
>>>> >> >>> > May need a line or piece of shock cord to get it clear of the
>>>> > water.
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > Starting to feel a little irritated with myself that I spent a
>>>> > couple
>>>> >> >>> of
>>>> >> >>> > grand on engineering for the two pin kick up system! KISS!
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > Regards,
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > Rob
>>>> >> >>> > On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
>>>> >> >>> > wrote:
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>> > > If the shaft was a bit thicker with a hole down the centre to
>>>> >> >>> allow a
>>>> >> >>> > > pull down chord, I can't see any problem having a similar
>>>> > set up to
>>>> >> >>> > > Harriette. If the bearings were above the structure of the
>>>> > the top
>>>> >> >>> > > plate, there would only be a fairly small hole in the
>>>> >> >>> > > structure.
>>>> >> >>> > > I was considering using some polypipe down the centre with a
>>>> >> >>> > > 90
>>>> >> >>> > > degree hard plastic bend added at the point where the end of
>>>> >> >>> > > the
>>>> >> >>> lever
>>>> >> >>> > > arm meets the shaft. This should provide a low enough
>>>> > friction to
>>>> >> >>> pull
>>>> >> >>> > > the rudder down and it could then be cleated off on the
>>>> > tiller, or
>>>> >> >>> > > even the tiller extension. Kicking up should be almost
>>>> > automatic.
>>>> >> >>> > > It may be possible to have a lift up chord as well,
>>>> > providing the
>>>> >> >>> > > rudder stayed with tiller steering.
>>>> >> >>> > > Robert --- In
>>>> >> >>> harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au <harryproa%40yahoog roups.com. au>
>>>> >> >>> <harryproa%40yahoog roups. com.au <http://40yahoogroup
>>>> >> >>> s.com.au/>>,
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>> > > "Rob Denney"
>>>> >> >>> > >
>>>> >> >>> > > <harryproa@> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > oops, try this one.
>>>> >> >>> > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > Robert,
>>>> >> >>> > > > Good thinking. Also makes the beams 10% lighter (the
>>>> > weight will be
>>>> >> >>> > > in the
>>>> >> >>> > > > hull instead, so no nett gain) so easier to carry about. I
>>>> > will
>>>> >> >>> > > change it
>>>> >> >>> > > > when I see how the harriette rudders work and whether they
>>>> > will
>>>> >> >>> work
>>>> >> >>> > > on the
>>>> >> >>> > > > bigger boat.
>>>> >> >>> > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > regards,
>>>> >> >>> > > > rob
>>>> >> >>> > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 10:54 AM, captian_rapscallion <
>>>> >> >>> > > > captian_rapscallion @> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > Could I take a look at the Rapscallion doc? it seems to
>>>> > be the
>>>> >> >>> Kate
>>>> >> >>> > > > > doc in the folder
>>>> >> >>> > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou
>>>> > ps.com.au<harryproa %40yahoogroups. com.au>
>>>> >> >>> <harryproa%40yahoog roups. com.au <http://40yahoogroup
>>>> >> >>> s.com.au/>>
>>>> >> >>> > > <harryproa%40yahoog roups. com.au
>>>> > <http://40yahoogroup s.com.au/>>,
>>>> >> >>> "Rob
>>>> >> >>> > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > Denney" <harryproa@> wrote:
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > G'day,
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Trailer proa renderings are in the Files section under
>>>> > Maxi
>>>> >> >>> Trailer
>>>> >> >>> > > > > sailor
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > 'The ultimate trailer sailor/racer cruiser' is the
>>>> >> >>> requirement for
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > this boat. As fast as possible, with standing
>>>> > headroom, minimal
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > galley, double bunk and a toilet. Trailering is mostly
>>>> > for the
>>>> >> >>> 5
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > mile trip from home to ramp, but occasionally further
>>>> > afield.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Windward hull is 7m.24', leeward hull 12m/40'
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > The boat is 6m/20' wide in sailing trim, but telescopes
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > to
>>>> >> >>> 3.7/12'4"
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > wide for marinas and 2m/6'8" wide on the trailer. This
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > is
>>>> >> >>> easily
>>>> >> >>> > > done
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > with composite beams. The mast and boom travel in
>>>> > cradles on
>>>> >> >>> the lw
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > hull deck, the beams under the cockpit. The trampoline
>>>> > is in
>>>> >> >>> two
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > pieces split fore and aft. Each piece has a 25mm dia
>>>> > carbon
>>>> >> >>> or alloy
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > tube sitting in hooks on the hull and the beams. In the
>>>> >> >>> middle is a
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > thicker tube for each piece. When telescoping for
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > marina
>>>> >> >>> use, the
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > lee hull tramp is lifted out of it's hooks and as the
>>>> > hulls
>>>> >> >>> slide
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > together it slides over the windward tramp, so you can
>>>> > still
>>>> >> >>> walk
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > across to the other hull. For light air races, it can
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > also
>>>> >> >>> be sailed
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > like this. For trailering, the tramps and the
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > telescoped
>>>> >> >>> beams are
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > quickly and easily removed and stored under the the
>>>> > cockpit.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > The mast is telescoped to 9.2m for stepping/unstepping
>>>> > . A 5m
>>>> >> >>> long
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > pole, with a 4;1 blocjk and tackle on one end is
>>>> > inserted into
>>>> >> >>> a
>>>> >> >>> > > hole
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > in the deck next to the mast. The heel sits in a cup
>>>> > next to
>>>> >> >>> the
>>>> >> >>> > > mast
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > step. The blocks are tied around the mast at it's
>>>> > centre of
>>>> >> >>> gravity
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > approx 3.7m from the base and it is lifted up until
>>>> > the heel is
>>>> >> >>> > > above
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > the deck, then guided into the top bearing and lowered
>>>> > into
>>>> >> >>> place.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Unstepping is the opposite. Very quick and very safe.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > The reefing drawing shows sail areas incl mast of of 47
>>>> >> >>> sqm/505 sq',
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > 35 sqm/376 sq' and 22 sq m/236 sq m. Storm sail is 2
>>>> > sq m/22.5
>>>> >> >>> > > sq' of
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > mast. Lots of sail up high for the light stuff, no drag
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > or
>>>> >> >>> weight up
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > high for the heavy.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Weight in sailing trim is 420 kgs and the payload 330
>>>> >> >>> kgs/726 lbs.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Overload could be as much again without it affecting
>>>> > anything
>>>> >> >>> > > but the
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > speed.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Construction method for the hulls is partially glassed
>>>> >> >>> panels joined
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > and compounded, with flat panels for the rest.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Bruce number empty is 2.34. With normal payload, 1.9.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Hull
>>>> >> >>> flying
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > wind speed 10 knots, lower with the crew sitting to
>>>> > leeward.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Inside the ww hull is a double bunk at one end and the
>>>> >> >>> galley and
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > toilet at the other. The galley space is large, but
>>>> > not all
>>>> >> >>> of it is
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > accessible. It will probably end up being accessed
>>>> > through a
>>>> >> >>> deck
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > hatch and used for storing fenders, etc.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > The cockpit is sheltered with a folding pram hood
>>>> > which will
>>>> >> >>> ensure
>>>> >> >>> > > > > dry sailing.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > The rudders could not be mounted on the telescoping
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > beams,
>>>> >> >>> so are in
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > daggercases in the hull. Rather than use long tiller
>>>> >> >>> extensions,
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > there is a short athwartships tiller (magenta in the
>>>> >> >>> renderings)
>>>> >> >>> > > with
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > an extension (green) attached to the tiller and a car
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > on
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > a
>>>> >> >>> track on
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > the deck. The car is pulled fore and aft by lines
>>>> > running to
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > whipstaffs (vertical tillers, red) on the leeward end
>>>> > of the
>>>> >> >>> > > cockpits.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > The lines are cleated on the whipstaffs so can be
>>>> > released and
>>>> >> >>> > > easily
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > replaced and retightened when the rudders are lifted
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > and
>>>> >> >>> lowered.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > This is a far easier system than wheel steering where
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > the
>>>> >> >>> lines must
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > be released off the quadrants to raise the rudders.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > > > Comments, suggestions, criticisms welcome.
>>>> >> >>> > > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > > >
>>>> >> >>> > > >
>>>> >> >>> > >
>>>> >> >>> > >
>>>> >> >>> > >
>>>> >> >>> >
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> ------------ --------- ---------
>>>> >> >> Sent from Yahoo!
>>>> > Mail<http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ mailuk/taglines/ isp/control/
>>>> > *http://us.
>>>> > rd.yahoo. com/evt=52418/ *http://uk. docs.yahoo. com/nowyoucan. html>.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> A Smarter Email.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > ------------ --------- ---------
>>>> >> > Sent from Yahoo!
>>>> > Mail<http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ mailuk/taglines/ isp/control/
>>>> > *http://us.
>>>> > rd.yahoo. com/evt=52418/ *http://uk. docs.yahoo. com/nowyoucan. html>.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > A Smarter Email.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __
>>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
>>>> A Smarter Email.
>>>
>>> ____________ _________ _________ __
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>>
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