I promise to make some drawings as soon as I get over the back log of
UNI assignments I am marking. I manages 83 today. I have another 113
to go--- In harryproa@yahoogrou
<gardner@...
>
> Thanks for the feedback on the hulls. I did a lbs/inch immersion
calc on the
> lw hull and get 270, so the lw hull will depress 15" when taking the
full
> displacement weight of both hulls (5000 lbs, which is 1000lbs more
that it
> should ever be). Since I think the bows come up to just below the cross
> beams (from what I have seen of the drawings of the other
trailerable)
> is less than the 36" clearance we have on that side. In any case, I
am just
> fiddling around with ideas. I will hire Rob to do the actual design.
>
> Having the rudders mount to the hull, and supported on the
crossbeams, or on
> the flare sounds like a good idea. Then they could stay in place when
> telescoping, but they still have to be removed for trailering, right?
>
> I definitely need to find a picture of the bracket. Next time I go
to the
> hardware store, I will try to get one. Just to be clear, however, it
isn't
> what is securing the bow at sea; it is just aligning and holding
everything
> in place so that 1 person and through-bolt the bow with 3 bolts.
>
> You sound like you are designing a cool boat. Can you upload any
drawings so
> that we can see just what you've got?
>
> - Gardner
> York, PA
>
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 2:03 AM, Robert <cateran1949@
>
> > -I reckon you may be going too skinny with the hulls. The lee
hull has
> > to be able to take the whole weight with significant transfer to the
> > bows. I work on the whole weight of the boat causing the lw hull to
> > depress to no more than half the depth of the bow when level. The
> > crossbeams also need a bit of bury on the lw side as that is where the
> > maximum loads are
> >
> > About the rudders. I am working on having a flare supporting the beams
> > on the lw side and in the flare, just to the bow end from the
> > crossbeams , incorporating a shaft such as on Harriette. This way the
> > flare only has to be a few inches plus half the width of the rudder,
> > from the hull. This reduces the leverage on the shaft by about 4-6"
> > and doubles the bury, as well as allowing the rudders to stay on the
> > hull when crossbeams are removed.
> >
> > Don't know what you don't like about using the cabin area for the
> > bury of the crossbeams.I presume you will have a sleeve in the ww hull
> > to separate the crossbeam from the internal space. You just have to
> > beef up this outer sleeve. I plan on a 3m wide ww hull, a 1.2m wide lw
> > , allowing collapsing to 4.2m and expanding to 6.5, with the cabin
> > area supplying the support for the outer sleeve and having only one
> > part crossbeams. To trail, I will have to either take them separately
> > or slide the lw hull under the ww on its side. This 3m limit allows
> > for wide load trailering, which in my area, is allowable as long as
> > you have a sign front and rear and travel during daylight. Any wider
> > and it gets a bit more difficult. I have a place near a good harbour
> > and only plan to take it home if I have to go away for any length of
> > time, otherwise I can simply take it up on the hard at 4.2 m wide or
> > leave it moored. One day I hope to sail to NZ as it is only across the
> > ditch from my place on the coast at Eden NSW
> >
> > Please can you post a picture of the V mounting. I have a hard time
> > envisaging a system that can be removed easily but is secure at sea.
> >
> >
> > Robert
> > -- In harryproa@yahoogrou
> > "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Oh, on a related note, I have redone my calculations for
buoyancy on the
> > > hulls and reduced the ww hull waterline beam to 2'. From my
calcs, this
> > > gives a ww displacement of 2,188 lbs and a hull weight (not
> > including the
> > > deck stuff) of 535 lbs. The lw hull at 45' with a 1.5' waterline
> > beam has a
> > > displacement of 1910 lbs with a hull weight of 500 lbs. If I allow
> > another
> > > 500 lbs for the cabin and 500 lbs for machinery (batteries,
> > outboard, etc),
> > > I get a full up weight of 2000 lbs with a displacement of 4000
lbs, so I
> > > think I have allowed for enough weight for crew and supplies.
> > >
> > > I didn't mention explicitly before, but I have reduced my target
lw hull
> > > length to 45'. That is the 28' length of the ww hull, plus 2
> > removable lw
> > > hull extensions of 8.5' each. I can tell from reponses that I
have not
> > > explained my mounting method for the hulls clearly. There is a V
shaped
> > > bracked I have used on a nesting dinghy. One end will attach to the
> > main lw
> > > hull. This is the female part of the V. A male flange will then be
> > mounted
> > > to the removeable section, so that you can just drop the 8.5'
> > section into
> > > the female V and it will slide into place and be held there. For
> > additional
> > > security, you would then want to bolt it tight, but the hull is held
> > > together firmly by the bracket before you do that.
> > >
> > > As always, I am looking for more feedback.
> > >
> > > One specific request area: How does the rig come apart on the other
> > > trailerable? just a mast and boom; so how does the boom come off?
> > Can you
> > > leave the sail in place when you remove it? What are the
dimensions and
> > > estimated weight of the mast, boom and sail (seperately)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > - Gardner
> > > York, PA
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 6:04 PM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@>
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I have uploaded the modifications to the trailerable PDFs to
> > allow for
> > > > the different underwing clearance for the ww and lw hulls. This
> > allowed me
> > > > to add a bench/storage cabinet to the galley area. I also
extended the
> > > > hardtop to cover the flip down walkway, so the drawings show the
> > boat the
> > > > way it will normally be in the water; the whole 10'x11' cockpit
> > area will be
> > > > covered with a hard roof, from which roll down clears can enclose
> > it against
> > > > any weather. This can all stay in place when going in and out of
> > the slip,
> > > > and there is very little additional work to trailer it this way as
> > well.
> > > >
> > > > I have drawn the visual for putting the boat in a shipping
> > container. I am
> > > > cutting the measurements very close, so I don't know if that will
> > work or
> > > > not. I am assuming that I will need a 108" high, top loading
> > container. So
> > > > far, none of the shipping companies have gotten back to me on what
> > the cost
> > > > is for a container from Panama to Philadelphia or Baltimore, so it
> > may cost
> > > > more to do that than to get it delivered. I would still like the
> > option of
> > > > shipping it to New Zealand. I am not sure yet if this is a boat
> > that should
> > > > cross the Pacific.
> > > >
> > > > The steering remaings as one of my bigger concerns. I am unclear
> > if there
> > > > is some way to put the rudders on the beam, while still allowing
> > the boat to
> > > > extend its beam from 12' to 20'. I am willing to increase the max
> > beam to
> > > > 14' if this will make a big difference.
> > > >
> > > > The steering of a proa is still unclear to me in general. If I
have 2
> > > > rudders, and 2 tillers, what happens to the tillers when I shunt?
> > Do the
> > > > tillers have to flip up overtop of the rudders, since the rudders
> > flip 180
> > > > degrees? How do I do that on a boat where the helmsman is 15-20'
> > from the
> > > > rudders? Do I need to handle both tillers at the same time? Plus,
> > I need to
> > > > handle the sheets to swing the boom across. How do I do this
> > single handed?
> > > > Can the rudders be connected together with a fiberglass pole, and
> > then I
> > > > just have 1 extension tiller to that pole?
> > > >
> > > > I definitely plan on single handing, and so far it sounds like a
> > lot of
> > > > running around on the tramps, using 4 hands at a time. I am sure
> > there is a
> > > > better way, but I am not clear on it yet.
> > > >
> > > > - Gardner
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 1:29 AM, Robert <cateran1949@
> > > >
> > > >> -There is no need to bury the fatter beam all the way through
> > the ww
> > > >> hull when expanded, only enough to support it. As the loads are
> > > >> significantly less than the other joins,. it doesn't have to
be that
> > > >> deep, I reckon you could get away with 18" to 2'.The only
problem is
> > > >> beefing the parts up for the compression point loads. The contact
> > > >> areas are slightly fatter to make for minimum slack at the
various
> > > >> expansion widths, while slightly narrower elsewhere to allow easy
> > > >> movement between, so the extra carbon is easy to add at these
points.
> > > >> This gives you about another 4' With suitable triangular
bracing, you
> > > >> could reduce the bury to 4" such as on Farrier tris but that
would
> > > >> increase the complexity.
> > > >>
> > > >> For the bows, I feel a hinged system would allow easier
> > alignment, and
> > > >> if you need to completely remove them, simply remove the
cotter pin
> > > >> and pull out the axle. Much easier to align the hinge on the
outside
> > > >> for the first attachment than try and push bolts through with
someone
> > > >> on the inside of the hull quickly getting a nut on,
> > > >> Robert-- In
harryproa@yahoogrou
> > <harryproa%40yahoog
> >
> > > >> "Gardner Pomper"
> > > >>
> > > >> <gardner@> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I am not sure what you mean by "how to get another 5 feet".
Do you
> > > >> mean in
> > > >> > beam or in length? The outer beam already buries all the way
> > through
> > > >> the ww
> > > >> > hull to the ww side. Sorry, I am just not following. Can you
> > elaborate?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I was not really trying to shorten the boat for slip storage,
> > > >> although I can
> > > >> > see that could help when I rent a slip. I have a dock, so I
> > wasn't that
> > > >> > concerned with that. I just want the boat shortened for
trailering.
> > > >> I am not
> > > >> > sure of the max height I can trailer without permits, etc, so
> > 8' bow
> > > >> > extensions that hinged up would take my height to about 13
> > feet, which I
> > > >> > thought was probably too high.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > - Gardner
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:12 AM, Robert <cateran1949@
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > -I can see how to get another 5 feet or so by making the
> > cabin edges
> > > >> > > strong enough to allow the outer beam to have a bury of 2'
> > into the ww
> > > >> > > hull. This would allow the through beam rudders and still
> > have plenty
> > > >> > > of narrowing for slips. Still reckon a hinge on top would
> > allow the
> > > >> > > bows relatively easy shortening for being left in a slip
> > > >> > > You have worked out the tolerances pretty fine. I reckon it
> > should
> > > >> > > work-- In
> > harryproa@yahoogrou
<harryproa%40yahoog
> > 40yahoogroups.
> > > >> <harryproa%40yahoog
> > > >> > > "gardnerpomper" <gardner@>
> > > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I have posted new versions of my ideas for a 50'
> > trailerable in the
> > > >> > > Gardner's Layout folder, if
> > > >> > > > anyone is interested.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > The idea for this boat is one that can be trailered, or
> > shipped in a
> > > >> > > container, but is ordinarily
> > > >> > > > left in a slip, so is just collapsed to a 12' beam. This
> > allowed me
> > > >> > > to basically move the seating
> > > >> > > > out from the galley area, so that I can have a real galley,
> > as well
> > > >> > > as a queen and a single.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I am retaining the idea of bows that remove for
trailering or
> > > >> > > containerizing, because that lets
> > > >> > > > me put a very long lw hull without the awkwardness of
trying to
> > > >> > > trailer a 50' boat.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I have absolutely no idea how the steering would be set up
> > on this,
> > > >> > > how the rudders would
> > > >> > > > mount, etc. I am hoping that someone can help me out with
> > ideas for
> > > >> > > that. I would be willing
> > > >> > > > to go with fixed rudders if I really have to in the leeward
> > hull,
> > > >> > > but I don't want a draft of more
> > > >> > > > than 30". Lift up rudders would be preferable.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Thanks for any feedback.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > - Gardner
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
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