Subject: [harryproa] Re: Political was three facts: comunist , slave otherlabor, pollution
From: "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@bigpond.com.au>
Date: 10/20/2008, 7:59 PM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

--- I certainly dont want to launch a huge debate here, a lot of you
can probably type faster than me and have more time to do so
but.......in a way this is both, as they say ,the best of times and
the worst of times.

Look around you because were at the peak of the mountain, never again
will we see so far over so much human activity and expenditure of
energy as we do now. We have the luck or misfortune, depending on your
point of view, of living at the single most pivotal moment of
humanities short time here on earth.

The planet on which we depend absolutley to survive is a finite system
you can only dig up so much stuff, feed so many people on so much land
etc. And yet the whole world works on an economic system that
absolutly must grow expotentially just to survive. The conflict
between the two ideas is as simple and as complex as that.

Im not going to waste time spouting the arguments and facts put
together by far smarter people than me, but i would urge everyone to
Google "money as debt" and watch the 47 min video. It may be a pretty
nerdy cartoon but stick with it , i think its one of the scariest
things ive ever see because its all true!.

The other thing to google is David Holmgrens "Future scenarios" web
site .As the co-founder of the permaculture idea Davids been walking
the walk for over 30 years, and is certainly not some Doomsdayer nut job.

And now that ive poked the hornets nest and ruined the day for some,
id end by saying im optomistic, sure things are going to get pretty
bad for lots of people and im not being flippant its a fact and its
already happening, but i honestly believe we already have the answers
but many are probably going to have to be forced by circumstance to
embrace them. For others there already doing it to some extent and for
still others it will be a welcome change.

Am i a hypyocrit wanting my boat made out of cheap labour and
petrochemicals hell yes , im human and im flawed but i promise once i
have my boat, my footprint on the earth will be a hell of a lot
lighter than if i were still in my house. And i will be living, really
living.

Cheers Tim

In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Robert" <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> -With any internal combustion motor NOx gases are also produced unless
> you remove the nitrogen form the intake. This is also a problem. Fuel
> cells using H2 would be aout the best once the storage is sorted out.
> Reducing the weight of the vehicles with use of composites would help.
> Just think how light you could build the shell of a vehicle and how
> all the other components would then be able to go smaller. I have seen
> a nice little two seater electric car at 350kg and that wasn't even
> using composites. I reckon you could get it down to less than a
> hundred kg using composites and fuel cells.
> I have to now get on my push bike and do some energy audits,
> Robert
> -- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Doug &al
> >
> > It isn't the vapour trails that do the damage. They are, after all,
> just water. I do know it is also a greenhouse "gas" but it moves
> through the atmosphere and condenses out as soon as the conditions are
> right. The damage is done by the carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide as
> well as the other unburned or partially burned hydrocarbons emitted by
> the jet engines. This is made worse by the altitude at which they are
> emitted.
> >
> > Similar observations (other than altitude, of course) hold for
> natural gas fueled automobiles. Natural gas is a "clean" fuel but this
> is only relative to the alternative fossil fuels and they still emit,
> literally tons, of CO and CO2 over long periods. This is why hydrogen
> is the ideal fuel, assuming we can improve the technology to generate
> it cleanly and cheaply. The only exhaust is water vapor.
> >
> >
> > Enjoy
> > Jim Baltaxe
> >
> > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of Doug Haines
> > Sent: Monday, 20 October 2008 4:01 p.m.
> > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Political was three facts: comunist ,
> slave labor, pollution
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I mnaged to build my first 2 boats (16 &28 footers) without owning a
> car. Lots of bicycle trips and some borrowing now and again.
> > I still don't drive if time permits. We take bikes on trains here
> and have a new line down to Mandutah which is quite lucky for me as
> there is free safe anchorage and mum's house.
> > Country people may use gas(not petrol but natural gas) cars but does
> that reduce emissions? I think I heard it is a clean burning fuel, but
> probably still gives off something. And what about air travel is it
> that bad, with vapour trails?
> >
> > Good old wind power that;s the way to go!
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > --- On Sat, 18/10/08, Robert <cateran1949@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Robert <cateran1949@>
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Political was three facts: comunist ,
> slave labor, pollution
> > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> > Date: Saturday, 18 October, 2008, 11:14 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > --I think we in Oz are possibly worse per capita for greenhouse
gases.
> > We should stop throwing stones ans all improve our acts.
> > I am very disappointed that Todd has felt he has to leave. His work
> > has been extrarodinary, and he certainly set me thinking .
> > Robert In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "jjtctaylor" <jtaylor412@ ...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Doing this from an iphone but Rob remember about
> > > that who is the worst polluter ? Recent
> > > environmental group played the carbon credits
> > > game flew an aircraft around the world to see which
> > > country was greatest contributor. Turns out the
> > > world owes the usa 12% of their gnp I'm the form of
> > > carbon credits. The global air is 12% cleaner as the
> > > jet stream progresses west to east across the
> > > country. Has all to do with agricuture and forest
> > > management. Pollution is not an easy topic nor is
> > > greenhouse gases a clear linkage to source, as
> > > today universally agreed most now comes from
> > > china. Tomorrow's volcano can shift world pollution
> > > in a moment in time.
> > >
> > > Gonna make boats labor cost is key, but as my own
> > > company has issues with communist regulatory
> > > codes which do seem to universally aaply to profits
> > > and not to labor protections that will take some
> > > many years to evolve.
> > >
> > > Sorry for typo goods or just me as a goof!
> > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "proaharry"
> > > <harryproa@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > Todd has left the group. Following is my email to
> > > him asking him to
> > > > return. Hopefully, he will.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rob
> > > >
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry I offended you. My comments about
> > > Americans were not aimed at
> > > > you personally (how could they be, I have never
> > > met you). If you had
> > > > been from Australia, New Zealand, England or
> > > anywhere else, I would
> > > > have made similarly disparaging generalisations.
> > > >
> > > > I stand by my reasons for building in China and
> > > hope that some day you
> > > > can come for a sail in a harryproa.
> > > >
> > > > Your videos and your insight will be missed on the
> > > group. Will you be
> > > > posting them anywhere else? I would like to
> > > follow them and I am sure
> > > > many others will as well. I am happy to tell them
> > > where to look if
> > > > you are.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck with your models and full size boat, I
> > > look forward to
> > > > hearing how it sails. If I can be of any help with it,
> > > please let me
> > > > know.
> > > >
> > > > You are, of course, welcome back at any time.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > > rob
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
>

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