Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Another layout submitted for review
From: Mike Crawford
Date: 12/16/2008, 4:59 PM
To: Gardner Pomper

Gardner,

  Each state is different.  The limit for unescorted trailering of 12' x 80' is the highest common denominator from Maine, where I live, to New Jersey, the primary place outside of Maine where I was originally planning on trailering a boat.  You'd still need a wide load permit, but that's normally a formality.  The good news is that you wouldn't need trailing or following escort vehicles.

  80' is probably the total length, which would include your tow vehicle.  If you're willing to have the mast overlap the back of the truck a bit, you could probably get up to a 70' mast in a single piece.  Otherwise 60' is a more realistic limit.  Since there's a height limit on the ICW, you might want to stick to under 64', just to have the option of ducking in there in case of a storm.

  I came up with that limit by doing a google search on wide load and department of transportation for each state in which I was interested.

  There's a company called Fleet One that will set up permits for you along a route of your choosing.  For a fee, of course.

    http://www.fleetonepermits.com/

  ---

  I've got mixed feelings about your larger design.

  a) That's the one I want myself.  Two real doubles in the windward hull, one or two small singles (or storage) in the leeward hull, and a galley in the center of the ww hull (where it won't be as affected by pitching).

  b) I really like what you're doing to fit inside a container, and am glad that you're pushing the group along.  I want to see someone build and sail that thing!

  Either way it's nice to see you working on the designs.  I particularly want half the things you come up with, but as you point out, the act of putting stuff out there helps everyone focus.

---

  I have generally decided on 50' harry.  Not a 50' visionarry, but a harry that has been stretched out in order to provide longer waterline, carry its weight more gracefully, and allow for more sail area (larger beam as well as longer lw hull to prevent digging in the bows).

  I also thought that a schooner una rig would be perfect.  A 64' single mast would be too short to drive the boat well, but a taller mast would rule out the ICW, which I'd want to be able to take advantage of if I head south and the weather gets ugly.  That would be a huge amount of sail area, but also easily managed and reefed, with only two strings to pull (no jibs), and a lower center of effort.

  And although Todd didn't like the schooner one bit, there are other arguments for it:

  - Redundancy -- sail with either mast intact.

  - Redundancy -- spare sails work with either mast.

  - Redundancy -- two spare mini-masts could be carried, along with smaller sails, for emergencies.

  - Capsizing -- two 64' sealed masts will keep you from going past 90 degrees.

  - Steering -- steer with the sails if both the rudders get wiped out.  Not in a harbor, but at least offshore.


  While some would say that 1100 sf of sail area would be too much for a boat that light, I would disagree for four reasons:

  1) Schooner rig keeps the center of effort lower.

  2) Flexible masts handle short gusts.

  3) The lack of shrouds means you can completely depower by releasing the sheets, at any time, and any points of sail (try that on a stayed rig, or while healing over with a spinnaker or code 0)

  4) I'm willing to reef.


  FYI, Paul Nudd, who races XL2 down under, plans on a 50' Harry with a schooner una rigs.  He wants spade rudders with daggerboards, which I probably wouldn't get because I like Rob's design.  But in general, Paul probably has more racing experience in multihulls than most of the group, so I trust his opinion.  Check out post 1583 (his comments are at the bottom):

    http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/message/1583

  Anyway, 1100 sf with 3500 pound weight yields an empty sail area to displacement ratio of over 70.  Amazingly fast.  My Stiletto 27 has an SA/D of 50 when empty, and it's a screamer. 

  But more importantly, the schooner stretched harry will be far safer and more seaworthy than what I currently sail.  It's probably the only large multihull that could pop back from a capsize without relying on a tow boat and a gas-charged masthead float.

---

  Your cutout in the leeward hull has gotten me thinking.

  I'd like a 7' cockpit in order to have enough room for three people to sit on each side with plenty of room, for each seat to serve as a single bunk, and to provide a decent dinner area with clears/bugscreens are rolled down.  However, 4' for the windward hull, 7' for the cockpit, and 2' for the leeward hull add up to more than 12'.  With that cutout, I might be able to have my cake and eat it too.  Maybe even get the minimum width down to 10' or 11', both of which are easier to manage than 12'.

  One idea: how about leaving the leeward topsides intact?  The cutout could leave most of the leeward hull open, but still keep the side there so things aren't quite so exposed.  Leaving that one side up probably wouldn't cost more than three or four inches, if that.

---

  Note: this email also will not go out to the group because I'm responding to the response to an email (not a group post).  But that probably works out because enough people have heard me wax poetic about the schooner una rig over the years.

 
       - Mike
 

Gardner Pomper wrote:
Mike,

Do you know what the max length is for trailering with whatever permit you need for a 12' width? Is it limited to 40'? I assume you are in the US, since you mention the width in feet.

I am back to looking at a larger version, collapsable to 12' width.

- Gardner


On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Mike Crawford <jmichael@gwi.net> wrote:

  I'd like to see the one with two doubles.  My long-term goal is to have a boat similar in size to yours.  If it fits into a container, that's perfect.  If not, I basically want it to collapse down to 12' so I can transport it over roads.  While 12' does require a wide load permit, it's the max width for trailering without an escort vehicle. 

  Since I'd only trailer it a few miles twice a year, I don't really care about the 8.5' limit for trailering without a permit.  This would be mostly to be able to avoid boatyard fees.

  Anyway, my wife and I would like to be able to take another couple with us, and wouldn't want to banish them to singles (though perhaps it's nice to have the option for two guests to *not* sleep together). 

       - Mike