Subject: Re: [harryproa] Proa sail downwind poorly?
From: Gardner Pomper
Date: 4/19/2009, 1:09 PM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au



Hi Mike,

That was a great reply, but I wasn't actually asking about capsizing.
I need to word my questions better, because I often have to try twice.

I am really just asking about the downwind sailing ability of a proa.
>From a small boat sailor that has seen several proas in the Everglades
Challenge, I keep getting comments about how they don't sail well
downwind. Can you elighten me as to why that is the case?

(Sorry about the mention of capsize. I should have left that out. I am
very comfortable with the harrys in the capsize dept. I never, ever,
ever plan to fly the ww hull).

I am undecided about the tradeoffs of a taller rig. In our Maine Cat
30, the screacher was our favorite sail. It was light and easy to use
because it was never deployed in a strong breeze. With a taller mast,
we have to lift that heavy mainsail all the way to the top, and the
top has to be heavy fabric, because that portion will still be up when
it is blowing 40-50 kts. Maybe it is a better idea to have a dedicated
sail for 5-12 kts, instead of just one big one, which we reef at 12
kts.

- Gardner

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Mike Crawford <jmichael@gwi.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>   Proas are no more likely to capsize han other multis.  It's a simple
> equation of heeling moment (sail area) versus righting moment (boat weight,
> moveable ballast, crew).
>
>   As you point out, the pacific proa crowd feels their design is perfect.
> As Rob points out in his online articles, it's perfect with a crab's claw
> sail, on a beam reach, in trade winds, with highly-trained nimble crew who
> can dance windward and leeward to keep the log at the right level.  Since
> the goal is to sail at the maximum heeling moment most of the time, this
> invites disaster if you don't have the perfect crew and conditions.
>
>   It's the same reason why the Reynolds 33 is proclaimed a dangerous boat
> and forbidden from some race circuits.  It's got a massive rig, and people
> like to use that rig to fly a hull as much as they can.  I've been on one
> and while I was only able to fly a hull for a few seconds at a time due to
> light winds, I have to say it's great fun.  But I don't do that with my own
> cat because I'm normally out alone.  If you fly a hull long enough, you're
> going down.  Maybe not for months or years, but it's only a matter of time.
> It doesn't make catamarans dangerous, and it doesn't even mean the r33 is
> dangerous.  It means that capsizes happen when people sail multihulls right
> on the edge for long periods of time.
>
>   You can argue that a Harry is less likely to capsize than an equivalent
> cat or or tri for the following reasons:
>
>   - Longer waterline keeps the bows from digging in.
>
>   - Sailing forces directly in line with the leeward hull, which is also the
> longest hull, help to keep the boat from tripping over an equivalently
> shorter catamaran hull, or worse, an even shorter trimaran hull.
>
>   - A greater percentage of weight to windward will provide greater righting
> moment for the same sail area.  This is a safety feature as long as you use
> it carefully though -- you could just keep pushing until you're flying a
> hull, and then you're on the edge again.  Nonetheless, this righting moment
> may let you hit your max reasonable speed long before it's time to fly a
> hull anyway, in which case there's no need for white knuckles.
>
>   - The flexible carbon mast will absorb gusts that would put a stayed boat
> right over.  If you're near the edge with a stayed mast, there's no way to
> stop quick a gust (quick enough to where dumping a sheet or traveler won't
> help -- because you're on the edge), which might be 40% stronger than the
> average wind speed.  But if the mast can flex, you gain a lot more reaction
> time, especially if you're got a rig that can dump force at a moment's
> notice (see next point).
>
>   - A balanced easyrig will let you go to near zero heeling moment at any
> time.  This is extremely important (whether on a proa or other multi) if you
> want to push the envelope safely.  Dumping a mainsheet on a normal sloop rig
> sometimes adds to power and heeling moment, and sometimes can't be done.
> Dumping a large headsail can also be problematic.  Trying to dump both at
> the same time, singlehanded, is highly unlikely.  Going to zero on an
> easyrig Harry is as simple as releasing a single sheet.
>
>   - A balanced rig will let you infinitely tune the heeling moment at any
> point of sail, even dead downwind.  Anyone who has ever been caught in a
> multi running in winds close to the pitchpoling force will tell you how
> vital this is.  It's quite scary to be out there knowing that you can't
> reduce sail area because the main in pinned to the shrouds, and you can't
> simply round up because that might cause you to dig in a bow and either
> capsize or pitchpole.
>
>   - You can always shunt, at any time, even if you're 50' off a lee shore,
> and do so while feathering the sails on "just so", in order to avoid any
> sudden stresses.  Trying to gybe, or come about through 200+ degrees, in a
> catamaran or tri, while eyeing the granite of a lee shore, is not a good
> feeling.  Being able to just switch direction is a superb safety feature.
>
>   - You can always just reverse.  There are times when the wind and wave
> period/height make a given angle of sail too dangerous to continue, but at
> the same time too dangerous to let a cat or trimaran turn around safely.
> Instead of trying to negotiation the mother of all turnabouts, you just head
> back in the other direction.  That's as valuable in preventing capsize as
> the ability to shunt.
>
>   - This is the one multi design that could elegantly self-right after a
> knockdown without any outside assistance.  If your boat is light enough and
> the wing mast is tall enough (to provide enough flotation), this turns a
> nightmare into simply a bad day.  Trying to do that on a 40' multi of any
> other design wold be highly unlikely.  While I don't think anyone has tried
> this, or wants to try it, on the cruising Harry's, Rob has done it many
> times on his Elementarry , and the physics work the same with a heaver boat
> and taller masts.
>
> ---
>
>   I'd say that as long as you're sailing wisely, and not trying fly a hull
> all the time, you won't find a safer design.
>
>   I'd personally go with a taller and/or telescoping mast if you want more
> speed.  That preserves all the benefits of the balanced rig listed above.
> Besides, does anyone other than a Decision 35 crew on Lake Genevia really
> need to push the SA/D past 50 or 60?  If you're already there, I'm not sure
> it makes sense to ask for more sail area.
>
>   But as Robert points out, this does mean you'll either have a taller mast
> or a telescoping mast.  I'd probably go for taller, both for the sake of
> simplicity and also for preventing going past 90 degrees in the event of a
> knockdown.  But since I'm primarily a daysailer, my opinion is skewed.
>
>        - Mike
>
>
> Gardner Pomper wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have been listening to a podcast called "Furled Sails" which is
> mostly about small sailing craft. One of the events they have covered
> alot has been the Everglades Challenge, which is a 300 mile race from
> Tampa, FL to Key Largo through the Everglades. It is mostly kayaks and
> open monohulls, but they have had a few proas as well.
>
> The reason I am posting is that they have made a number (3 or 4)
> comments about proas having not being able to sail downwind well. I
> don't know if they mean speed or stability. Most of the criticism I
> have heard about proas has been capsizing; not downwind performance.
> Can anyone here tell me if there is an issue with proas sailing
> downwind?
>
> I assume the proas they are referring to are traditional pacific
> proas, so I figured I would just get denials from the regular proa
> groups. I thought people here might have more objective and informed
> opinions.
>
> If this is purely a sail size issue, I have a related question. Would
> it be possible/reasonable to extend the forward boom on an easyrig and
> mount a roller furled screacher there for light wind and downwind
> performance? Maybe sheet it off to the end of the main boom?
>
> Thanks,
> - Gardner
>
>

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