Make 'em looser fitting! Sand the epoxy inner shell of the bearing
with a length of sandpaper, wrapped half way round the mast and pulled
back and forth. Rotate the mast regularly and it will be almost lathe
like in it's roundness.
regards,
Rob
On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 10:14 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.
>
>
> as i start making the insert section of lw hull, i need to include the mast
> lowering/raising pole that Rob suggetsed for Rapscallion?
> I wonder if the mast can slide out easily enough.
> had trouble with my ones which were a bit stuck in the hull.
>
> doug
>
> --- On Fri, 15/5/09, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.
>
> From: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] opened up lw hull at centre
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou
> Date: Friday, 15 May, 2009, 9:36 PM
>
> hi,
>
> I also see that the inside of one half shell was 400g db, as I hadn't
> reeceived the 260g glass. so that helps add to the torsion strength.
> I'm confident the re will be plenty of strength, seeing as the righting
> moment will be faily similar as before.
> Beam may increase only a little bit and weight only a little.
>
> Maindifference will be ease of handling, astiffer mast, more sail for
> 10-15knot winds, and longer waterline for the chop and high speed nose down
> improvement.
>
> Doug
>
> PS the kri cored parts )of the cabin) seem way heavier than the foam recent
> additions, should it be that much? Probably ob a simple spartan fitted out
> boat like mine the shell construction will accoumnt for larger percentage
> overall, and foam saves lots weight on kiri - which I checked out yesterday
> is way more expensive (nearly 2,5 times nore than foam!
>
> --- On Fri, 15/5/09, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk>
> Subject: [harryproa] opened up lw hull at centre
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Friday, 15 May, 2009, 7:05 PM
>
> hi,
>
> i cut through the lw hull, see the inside again.
> couldn't glass the inside join along the top and bottom, but can do this now
> through the access opening. grinding inside very tough, but over and done
> now. ground back 430.. for the joining next insert section. putting most
> layers on inside, with only one db outside.
>
> doug
>
> --- On Fri, 15/5/09, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com> wrote:
>
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com>
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: cling wrap
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Friday, 15 May, 2009, 2:31 PM
>
> G'day,
>
> Infusing Polycore will be a challenge. I think it would be quicker
> and less prone to problems, but messier, to do it wet in two hits.
>
> Carpet or other bleed material over peel ply is very hard to remove
> when it has resin in it. Use perforated plastic between the two. I
> usually don't bother with the peel ply.
>
> I thought the cling film was the vac bag??
>
> Release agent is scary stuff and causes all sorts of problems with
> pain finishes. Sanding gel, epoxy primer, peel ply or a thin layer of
> bog are all solutions, as is scraping the surface before painting.
> Sanding just spreads the release agent around, as does solvent wiping.
> PVA (polyvinyl alcohol) is water based so a scotchbrite pad and a
> hose will clean up the surface, but if your paint job is important to
> you, I would not rely on it.
>
> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The scrim is the skin welded on either side of the core for providing a
>> surface that resin will stick to. Check out the polycore website
>>
>> http://www.polycore -australia. com.au/Polypropy lene-Honeycomb. php
>> Though they don't seem to explain it particularly well.
>> Nidacore explains it better though they are a slightly different product.
>>
>> Be interesting to see how Mark Stephens with the Pacific Cats does the
>> double sided infusion with Polycore. Though, for the no rocker high
>> prismatic coefficient hulls of a Harry, the semipermeable nature of the
>> scrim, seems to me, to make vac bagging on a table simpler and/or lighter
>> if
>> you get the resin ratios right.
>>
>> About using cling wrap,seems to me, that some gas escape is needed on the
>> top of the upper skin to avoid bubbles and subsequent voids. I suppose a
>> squeegee or firm roller could chase out bubbles and surplus resin but I
>> can
>> see a disaster in the making if the wrap ruptured or bunched up. I think I
>> would be more comfortable with old carpet over peel ply.
>>
>> On the bottom skin , I was wondering about the release agent and if it can
>> cause any problem with subsequent painting or glassing. I was wondering
>> about painting a very thin fairing epoxy and microballoon mix onto the
>> table
>> and letting it go to a green set and then putting down the panels. I don't
>> know if there would be any advantage over peelply
>>
>> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Malcolm Phillips <malcolmdphillips@
>> ...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This has been an interesting thread.
>>>
>>> By scrim did you mean the holes in the core to let the air through to the
>>> top,
>>> or peel-ply under the panel?
>>>
>>> I assume that once you have made a panel you bend it into shape as if it
>>> was
>>> plywood?
>>> How easy is it to bend? Do you have to do it before it is fully cured or
>>> anything?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Malcolm
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@. ..> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > True, as far as excess resin is concerned, so you need to be more
>>> > careful with your application. However, the scrim lets air through so
>>> > there are no voids.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Robert
>>> > <cateran1949@ ...<cateran1949% 40yahoo.co. uk>>
>>> > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > -in polycore there is no such thing as a 1mm diameter hole. this adds
>>> > > 1kg
>>> > > /m2. a dispersal medium loses the finish of the table. no such thing
>>> > > as a
>>> > > free lunch-- In
>>> > > harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au<harryproa
>>> > Rob Denney <harryproa@>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The foam is perforated (1mm dia hioles every 100mm or so. Lets the
>>> > >> air and the exces resin out. Without the holes or a dispersal
>>> > >> material underneath, you invariably get a huge air bubble where the
>>> > >> vaccum cannot reach, regardless of how much resin is in there.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> regards,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Rob.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Robert <cateran1949@ > wrote:
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> > I was wondering about the ability to remove excess resin when
>>> > >> > making
>>> > >> > wide
>>> > >> > panels. I was thinking about single panels to make the bottom and
>>> > >> > one
>>> > >> > and a
>>> > >> > half sides of the lw hull, about a 2.4 wide panel at its widest.
>>> > >> > Derek
>>> > >> > used
>>> > >> > to do it on the table without bleeding or dispersal medium
>>> > >> > underneath.
>>> > I
>>> > >> > suppose very careful measuring of resin would allow this.
>>> > >> > In tropics, too long exposure to humidity can cause problems with
>>> > epoxy,
>>> > >> > but
>>> > >> > If you are immediately covering it , then I suppose it is not a
>>> > problem,
>>> > >> > regards,
>>> > >> > Robert
>>> > >> > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>>> > >> > <harryproa%40yahoog roups.com. au>,
>>> > "Herb Desson" <squirebug@> wrote:
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Hi Rob,
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Not sure about the clingfilm manufacturer - the label is in
>>> > >> >> Thai. Will see what I can find out about the thickness - it isn't
>>> > much
>>> > >> >> thicker than kitchen use film, but tough enough you can stand on
>>> > >> >> it
>>> > to
>>> > >> >> unroll it without puncturing it (just once). I do all my work in
>>> > >> >> bare
>>> > >> >> feet,
>>> > >> >> to reduce dust and punctures.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> The ground I use is a fairly smooth concrete carport (i.e.,
>>> > >> >> garage
>>> > >> >> without
>>> > >> >> walls) floor. Not as smooth as a formica table probably, but no
>>> > seams.
>>> > >> >> Since
>>> > >> >> I only do the top side, the core smooths out any minor unevenness
>>> > >> >> and
>>> > >> >> probably would hide any local uneveness less than 1/2 inch. My
>>> > maximum
>>> > >> >> local
>>> > >> >> unevenness is maybe 1 millimeter.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> The carport works fine for the dory, and may be ok for an
>>> > >> >> elementarry
>>> > >> >> size
>>> > >> >> boat. Bigger than that I will need to make a bigger carport or
>>> > >> >> shed,
>>> > >> >> which
>>> > >> >> is not a problem for me as I have 4 hectares to work with.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> What I do is unroll the film, put the foam core on it, which
>>> > >> >> mostly
>>> > >> >> keeps
>>> > >> >> it flat - beer bottles work pretty well to stop it from clumping
>>> > >> >> in
>>> > the
>>> > >> >> breeze. Then I unroll the top layer of film and re-roll it (so I
>>> > >> >> can
>>> > >> >> unroll
>>> > >> >> it quickly after the resin is applied. Then I apply the
>>> > >> >> fiberglass
>>> > (top
>>> > >> >> side
>>> > >> >> only), peel ply and vacuum set up. Then I unroll the film and do
>>> > >> >> a
>>> > dry
>>> > >> >> run
>>> > >> >> to check that the vacuum will work.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> After that I re-roll the film, apply the resin by pouring and
>>> > >> >> rolling
>>> > >> >> (or
>>> > >> >> pushing it around by gloved hand), unroll the film and apply
>>> > >> >> vacuum.
>>> > I
>>> > >> >> am
>>> > >> >> not doing infusion, just vacuum to remove extra resin. Very
>>> > >> >> simple
>>> > >> >> really. I
>>> > >> >> don't see much need to do two sides at once and hence no need for
>>> > >> >> infusion.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> I have had no problems seeing where the film is, maybe because it
>>> > >> >> is
>>> > a
>>> > >> >> bit
>>> > >> >> thicker or maybe because I have shaded outdoor light, which is
>>> > >> >> easier
>>> > >> >> to see
>>> > >> >> film in, instead of shop lights.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> For panles much bigger than 1 square meter this really works much
>>> > >> >> better
>>> > >> >> with assistants to control the film when unrolling after applying
>>> > >> >> resin. It
>>> > >> >> can get quite anxiety provoking and messy if it starts clumping
>>> > >> >> with
>>> > a
>>> > >> >> time
>>> > >> >> limit. Other than that step I have so far done everything by
>>> > >> >> myself.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> I hadn't heard about bleeder cloth until today - guess I didn't
>>> > >> >> do
>>> > >> >> enough
>>> > >> >> research, but I am happy with my work around. I think I still
>>> > >> >> need
>>> > >> >> a
>>> > >> >> bit of
>>> > >> >> peel ply to keep the vacuum hose from sticking to the panel, or
>>> > >> >> at
>>> > >> >> least to
>>> > >> >> make it easier to take off - I find it difficult to remove the
>>> > >> >> hose
>>> > >> >> when
>>> > >> >> resin accumulates without peel ply. But the peel ply can be only
>>> > about
>>> > >> >> 6
>>> > >> >> inches wide, just enough to make the hose easy to remove. The
>>> > >> >> vacuum
>>> > >> >> hose is
>>> > >> >> 5/8 inch clear plastic hose cut in a spiral that I lay around the
>>> > panel
>>> > >> >> and
>>> > >> >> inside the shop vac hose. The cling film covers everything.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> Best regards
>>> > >> >> Herb
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>>> > >> >> <harryproa%40yahoog roups.com. au>,
>>> > Rob Denney <harryproa@> wrote:
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > G'day,
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > Good stuff! I have tried cling film in the past, but it was too
>>> > hard
>>> > >> >> > to see where it was and wasn't. That was only 300mm wide. Any
>>> > >> >> > idea
>>> > >> >> > what thickness yours is? And who is the manufacturer?
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > How do you keep the sheet flat if you bag it on the ground?
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > It sounds as if you are not using a bleeder cloth? This goes on
>>> > >> >> > top
>>> > >> >> > of the preforated plastic on top of the peel ply and soaks up
>>> > surplus
>>> > >> >> > resin, so there is none available for lumps.
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > If you are sanding the panels anyway, peel ply is not required.
>>> > >> >> > The
>>> > >> >> > ATL resin is great stuff, has out times of several days if
>>> > required.
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > regards,
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > Rob
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >> > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Herb Desson <squirebug@>
>>> > >> >> > wrote:
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > Hi,
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > I have been experimenting with a 4 meter dory before starting
>>> > >> >> > > on
>>> > a
>>> > >> >> > > harryproa
>>> > >> >> > > and have learned a few things that might be interesting.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > 1. I have found some large rolls of 1.4 meter wide heavy duty
>>> > >> >> > > clingfilm/saranwrap at the local diy. It has all the usual
>>> > >> >> > > properties
>>> > >> >> > > of
>>> > >> >> > > clingfilm - sticking together, clumping etc. But also doesn't
>>> > need
>>> > >> >> > > to
>>> > >> >> > > be
>>> > >> >> > > taped and holes can be plugged after applying vacuum just by
>>> > >> >> > > dropping
>>> > >> >> > > a a
>>> > >> >> > > small piece on the hole. Holes are very rare so far. I am
>>> > >> >> > > using a
>>> > >> >> > > shop
>>> > >> >> > > vac
>>> > >> >> > > at the moment (may change later) and find that the film makes
>>> > >> >> > > a
>>> > >> >> > > good
>>> > >> >> > > seal
>>> > >> >> > > around the non-smooth hose. I have had no problems with the
>>> > >> >> > > film
>>> > >> >> > > breaking
>>> > >> >> > > under vacuum.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > 2. With the cling film I don't need a table - just use a
>>> > >> >> > > double
>>> > >> >> > > length
>>> > >> >> > > of
>>> > >> >> > > film at least for narrow panels, which is all I need for the
>>> > dory.
>>> > >> >> > > This
>>> > >> >> > > saves a lot of set up time as I just use any smooth piece of
>>> > ground
>>> > >> >> > > instead
>>> > >> >> > > of a table. This means working on the ground, which has lead
>>> > >> >> > > to
>>> > >> >> > > some
>>> > >> >> > > aching
>>> > >> >> > > hamstrings, but I am adapting and my assistants (all Thais)
>>> > >> >> > > don't
>>> > >> >> > > understand
>>> > >> >> > > why my hamstrings hurt.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > 3. Given my experience to date with the film I don't expect
>>> > >> >> > > any
>>> > >> >> > > problems
>>> > >> >> > > with wide panels.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > 4. The nylon I have used as peel ply is allowing lumps of
>>> > >> >> > > resing
>>> > to
>>> > >> >> > > remain
>>> > >> >> > > in the panels. This is partly because the resin I have used
>>> > >> >> > > so
>>> > far
>>> > >> >> > > sets too
>>> > >> >> > > quick in the Thai weather, which is usually well above 80
>>> > >> >> > > fahrenheit.
>>> > >> >> > > I have
>>> > >> >> > > located a supplier 1000 kilometers from here (ATOL) who say
>>> > >> >> > > they
>>> > >> >> > > can
>>> > >> >> > > solve
>>> > >> >> > > that problem.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > 5. I will try using only the cling film for most of the panel
>>> > >> >> > > (except
>>> > >> >> > > where
>>> > >> >> > > the vaccum hose goes). This will allow me to see lumps and
>>> > >> >> > > press
>>> > >> >> > > them
>>> > >> >> > > out
>>> > >> >> > > when I have more pot life. It will mean the cling film won't
>>> > >> >> > > come
>>> > >> >> > > off,
>>> > >> >> > > but
>>> > >> >> > > as I will paint the hull, a light sanding prior painting
>>> > >> >> > > (which
>>> > >> >> > > would
>>> > >> >> > > be
>>> > >> >> > > necessary anyway) will remove it (I hope).
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > I am very happy with the clingfilm and think it solves lots
>>> > >> >> > > of
>>> > >> >> > > problems.
>>> > >> >> > > Also, I don't see any reason to bother with a table.
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > Best regards
>>> > >> >> > > Herb
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > > --- In
>>> > >> >> > > harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au<harryproa
>>> > >> >> > > au>,
>>> > Rob Denney <harryproa@> wrote:
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >> G'day,
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >> You will not save much by bagging the small panels
>>> > >> >> > >> individually.
>>> > >> >> > >> This
>>> > >> >> > >> is what blew the budget on Sol 1. It is quicker to nest them
>>> > >> >> > >> on
>>> > a
>>> > >> >> > >> big
>>> > >> >> > >> sheet and cut them out afterwards.
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >> Wet laminating and bagging both sides in one hit is much
>>> > >> >> > >> quicker
>>> > >> >> > >> than
>>> > >> >> > >> setting up for infusion. Sealing the bag is time consuming,
>>> > >> >> > >> but
>>> > >> >> > >> good
>>> > >> >> > >> preparation and practice speeds it up, as does good tacky
>>> > >> >> > >> tape
>>> > and
>>> > >> >> > >> a
>>> > >> >> > >> hole free bag.
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >> Tape down one long edge of the bag before you start wetting
>>> > >> >> > >> out,
>>> > >> >> > >> apply
>>> > >> >> > >> the tacky tape to the other edges and roll the bag and cover
>>> > >> >> > >> it
>>> > to
>>> > >> >> > >> keep it out of harm's way. Run a piece of tape over the area
>>> > >> >> > >> to
>>> > be
>>> > >> >> > >> sealed to so that resin cannot get onto it. Put the cloth on
>>> > >> >> > >> the
>>> > >> >> > >> table and have the drilled core, inner skin and vac stack
>>> > >> >> > >> all
>>> > >> >> > >> ready
>>> > >> >> > >> to
>>> > >> >> > >> go. Wet out the outer skin with a fluffy roller/, spread any
>>> > >> >> > >> wet
>>> > >> >> > >> areas with a squeegee. No need to be too careful. Wet out
>>> > >> >> > >> the
>>> > core
>>> > >> >> > >> with a squeegee. Put the core in place and the next layer of
>>> > glass
>>> > >> >> > >> on
>>> > >> >> > >> it. Wet it out with the fluffy roller. Remove the protective
>>> > tape
>>> > >> >> > >> and apply the vac stack. The trick to long layup times is to
>>> > >> >> > >> spread
>>> > >> >> > >> the resin quickly. Leaving it in the pot is a disaster. An
>>> > >> >> > >> assistant
>>> > >> >> > >> to measure and mix resin is a good plan, as is premeasuring
>>> > >> >> > >> the
>>> > >> >> > >> resin
>>> > >> >> > >> and hardner so they only have to be mixed and stirred.
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >> Use the amount of resin in the absorber material (I use old
>>> > >> >> > >> carpet,
>>> > >> >> > >> costs nothing) as a guide to how much resin you need to
>>> > >> >> > >> apply
>>> > next
>>> > >> >> > >> time. If it goes off too quickly, use slower resin, then
>>> > >> >> > >> throw a
>>> > >> >> > >> tarp over the vac bag with a couple of blower heaters
>>> > >> >> > >> underneath
>>> > >> >> > >> to
>>> > >> >> > >> speed it up.
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >> Fitting out and finish are the difference between boats I
>>> > >> >> > >> build
>>> > >> >> > >> and
>>> > >> >> > >> those built by professionals and proud owner builders. Your
>>> > shell
>>> > >> >> > >> will take longer than mine as it is more complex, and you
>>> > >> >> > >> are
>>> > >> >> > >> learning what you can and can't get away with. My interior
>>> > >> >> > >> will
>>> > be
>>> > >> >> > >> bare, to start with, the decks and beam tops will have non
>>> > >> >> > >> slip
>>> > on
>>> > >> >> > >> them, the bottom antifouling, and the rest will be bare
>>> > >> >> > >> resin,
>>> > at
>>> > >> >> > >> least for the first few months. Partly to show off what can
>>> > >> >> > >> be
>>> > >> >> > >> done
>>> > >> >> > >> off the table, partly so I can make any adjustments that
>>> > >> >> > >> become
>>> > >> >> > >> necessary. Suggest you get a breakdown of hours and
>>> > >> >> > >> materials
>>> > and
>>> > >> >> > >> see
>>> > >> >> > >> how they compare. It is very difficult for builders to quote
>>> > using
>>> > >> >> > >> a new build system, so the more it is broken down, the
>>> > >> >> > >> easier
>>> > >> >> > >> it
>>> > >> >> > >> is
>>> > >> >> > >> to
>>> > >> >> > >> fine tune the quote.
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >> regards,
>>> > >> >> > >> rob
>>> > >> >> > >>
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> > >
>>> > >> >> >
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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