Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Single beam version of sidecar
From: Doug Haines
Date: 2/18/2010, 4:35 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 

I cut above the forestay, and it wouldn't see much load except the halyard forces. The non tapering section makes it too strong than it needs to be up at the top (mast).
 
I did'nt like the way the sail was hardly even visible from sitting on deck under the sunroof. Also It was more difficult to reach clews, tacks, halyards, downhauls, outhaul ropes and cleats. The height of sail area may not make much difference but it looks better or feels more comfortable  when the sail statr sat least around eye level when sitting down rather than swinging up over your head above the sunroof.
 
The tenderness of heeling over that I have felt is really more to day sail/race not long cruise.
 
The balance is so easy now (no rounding up), the boat will sail into the wind, luff lose speed and still turn away down wind somehow by steering . Before if you went too high and lost too much speed that would be a good chance of going "aback" and whatever going backwards (it is confusing) to get the wind back on the ww side again.
 
All I really changed was the rig - so I guess that is an argument against the schooner - sorry.
 
I wonder about reefing to the last sail, would that be the 2nd reef in the main and no jib.
Should there be a jib to match the 2nd reefed main. This would be another reef sewn innnn to the jib (currently has one reef).
.
 
Hading off tommorrow try ing to make Swan river by luchtime and drop the mast out at Garden Island  first then to sail up under Fremanlte river bridges with the jib raised up o nthe lifting pole. Then I could sail up without stopping to do the lowering in the middle of Freo harbour. It is  just less stressful to anchor somewhere quiet to drop and tidy up.  It will be midday Friday and many people head out early towards Rottnest Island. The lowering I find means taking off lazy jacks and forestay to clear the lifting pole from any obstacles, tying up the sails on the boom, putting the pole in the hole in the deck, attacjing the shackle to the mast lifting lug point and hoisting up. It has been coming up easily enough. Still awkward handling with the boom stuck on one end, but seems to have always come down OK.
 
I wonder how big you could go with the method of stepping a mast? As an additional pice of equipment on a cruise it could be sensible to take some lighter weight joined together sections for using as a lifting pole on say a Rapscallion. Harry could get hairy. Nothing but extra carbon and pulleys to do it though.
The two sections i have of steel and a bit od windsurfer beefed up fit togther and stow on the trampoline. I suppose a better mast would also be lighter and tapered. The lower down the lifting point on the mast the lower the lifting pole has to be. The boom and sails makes it quite low down and much safer to swing into position.
 
Has Rob actually done this before? It has worked out Fine. Saving the previous attepts at mast removal. I think I had to just try and pull it up by hand and let it fall over the sideonce up out of the hull tube. THen I got a high jetty to walk the mast up vertical with a lkittle hinge keeping the mast base slotted in.
That was before i had to beef up the stumps and couldn't get the masts out again for the tight fit. Rob and I pulled sidecar up on its side on the leeward hull to pull the masts out I think.
 THat was a good test of the beams to see the ww hull elevated up at right angles - I hope the new beam extension will not overload the elementarry design strengths.
I look forward to sailing again with the wide stable beam as it was back on mark 1 sidecar back 3 and a half years ago at about 4.2m wide overall.  I think I can blame much of poor handling to sail area and rudder position rather than the overall width. It be a factor along with other things like sail shape (efficiency), maybe hull fairing or rudder blade and blade size.
 
The easy rig also puts some sail out to windward of the mastrather than as with a schooner rig where every part of the sails are to leewrd.
 
Iam interested to see how the solitarry goes. I never got much of a go on elementarry so imagine it will be sweet once your speed is up and you wouldn't miss the jib. A cruiser may prefer having a better balance. When it the easy rig is tested in a good breeze with and without a jib you'd get a definite answer on how the una and ballestron compare. WOuld a sagging forestay and jib be any worse than having no jib at all?
 
The other day it was light wind and so i unreefed the jib so that it was balnced forward and had to run a sheet from the jib boom. I guess this would happen if the ideas on big poled out genoas were tried out. You would not control the boom from the back but from the front.
 
The spinnakker could work too since it is what I will do tommorro with the jib rigged up on the lifting pole from garden island into the swan. I did this yesterday with no worries, going to a broad reach and shifting the sheets around to keep the sail angled against the wind.
 
The multihull gives a lot of cleating options on a running sail sheet cleating. I guess a higher performance harry would need a tighter sail. I was sailing on the "wrong side" with lw hull to winward to get the sail pulled in inborad. This wouldn't be a safe option and again not high performance maybe, so back to the self taking easy jib infornt of the mast I guess.
 
DOug
 
Any surf?
None here
--- On Thu, 18/2/10, robert <cateran1949@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: robert <cateran1949@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Single beam version of sidecar
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Date: Thursday, 18 February, 2010, 18:22

 
Much harder to stick back together than cut down! Is the sailing balance good enough to go wider without heading up to weather if reefed to main only.
The boom height is one reason I am wanting to go to a schooner rig, but the lower down winds are dirtier so it is not such a great loss, losing the low down area.
I am going to have to check the max length of the boom allowed with my ww hull set up

--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
> Nice and warm around here. Getting a bit sun frazzled though.
> Actually the major issue on Sidecar is what I am needing to put back in to Maylands for - the sun roof / beam width / boom swinging room problem.
>  
> I feel the boat can go up to about 4.8m beam and be a bit more stable than it is at present.
> This allows the boom height to come down to a manageable height up from the deck so as to make it easier to work at the mast when raising the sails andalso get the sail area lower.
>  
> The sunroof would fit too, without the boom swinging around and hitting it with the forestay or hitting the roof support poles.
>  
> I may tak ethe mast height back up to the 1mm then afterward as it could help in t  the light airs.
>  
> DOug
>
> --- On Wed, 17/2/10, robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
>
>
> From: robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: Single beam version of sidecar
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Wednesday, 17 February, 2010, 22:34
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Nice to hear you're getting some sailing in. I've had to put up with only surfing and snorkeling.
> Any tendency to head up or is it nicely balanced?
> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > I should report on the first decent sail, since relaunch.
> > I had half an hour of nice 12-15 knot winds on about the beam for a sail down to Mandrah.
> > The boat did seem a little quicker and smoother. The feeling was different somehow anyway - perhaps it was this new balance that the sail area versus rudder has provided.
> > There was probably 12knots at times who knowsthough without a gps. The rudder has not ventilated (air streams offthe blade) at all yet.
> >  
> > I am needing to change a few things back up at Maylands Boat Yard for a few days.
> > Am not making statements of possible upcoming voyaages, will wait and see.
> >  
> > Also have some more opinions on areas like the new rudders.
> > But haven't tested out fully yet.
> >  
> > The outboard is great - though my bracket gets the powerhead wet too easily for serious motoring. It has been good help for passing under the bridges and light headwinds. I have never used an outboard on a sailboat much before but luckily this one is going easily.
> >  
> > Doug
> >
> > --- On Tue, 16/2/10, robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Single beam version of sidecar
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Tuesday, 16 February, 2010, 11:36
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > I gave a lot of thought to the hull ratios and how tris can get away with fatter in the main hull, but when I tried to bring it to bear on a double-ender ww proa hull things didn't work out so well. Weight distribution and need for a fine transom made a mess of the relation. I feel a minimum of 12:1 is needed for the ww hull and preferably higher. The extra wetted area is not as important as the wave making as it is going to very quickly get into being significantly faster than the waterline length speed (about 5 or 6 knots for this length hull). Also I reckon you will need a spray deflector as the fatter ratios are going to produce a fair bit.
> >
> > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "John" <jrwells2007@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > With regard to length/beam ratios for the ww hull, it should be possible to relate to trimaran design which has had far more work undertaken over many years. After all, a trimaran is similar to an atlantic proa until you tack.
> > > A longer finer ww hull will have greater surface area and therefore greater skin resistance at low speeds plus a greater twisting force on the connecting beam(s) to the lw hull.
> > > A shorter fatter ww hull will have greater wave-making resistance at higher speeds but does this matter too much as the lw hull is more important as speeds increase? At higher speeds the length of the lw hull inhibits squatting of both the lw and the ww hulls and it is this squatting that is potentially the speed limitation factor. Also at higher speeds the ww hull is being partially unloaded which will reduce its wave making resistance.
> > > The wide stern on the main hull of a tri does inhibit squatting but the lw hull of a proa is munch longer than the ama of a tri and should have a similar effect.
> > > Farrier tris are reasonably fast for a cruising boat and they have about a 10 or 12 to 1 fineness of the main hull. However, Ian Farrier is happy that the fatter F31AX is at least as fast as the standard F31. The generalized recommendation for tris is, I believe, to keep the ratio for the main hull above 8 to 1.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "robert" <cateran1949@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My thinking is a little different from Rob's in that I feel there is a minimum length ww hull that is practicable. I feel that making it slightly longer doesn't detract except in adding racking forces. I also feel that a short ww hull either needs to be set up to plane-possible with a single crossbeam and ability to swing the ww hull back a bit, or go on foils, unless you are aiming to fly on the edge. Otherwise I feel the ww hull may drag a little at medium speeds. Going too light with the ww hull and there is no righting moment (unless you want the top of the sail to be reversed to provide righting moment as in some wings)and power requires righting moment. Going heavy enough for righting moment and it can drag in light winds I am going with a relatively skinny ww hull flared above the waterline to provide lift when going through chop. A bit like having above the waterline looking like two lots of the front half of a hull of a power cat butted
> > together with a 165degree dihedral.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) I made the ww hull as short as possible, but the waterline beam is still 2', so I only have a 10:1 length/beam ratio. Would I be better off stretching just the hull portion out to 24-26 feet? It would add a bit of weight and windage, but would have a finer profile.
> > > > >
> > >
> >
>


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