Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Asymmetric Bi-directional Rudders
From: Dennis Cox
Date: 8/4/2010, 10:20 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 

Thanks Mike,
 
I started a thread on the BoatDesign forum about the BMW/Oracle wing and Tom has been very educational there.  Unfortunately, he seems to be against their use on a cruiser.  I've read what he's talking about and I'm sure he's right... I'm just wondering how much of his pessimism is because of the BMW boat.  Its wing could not go through 360 degrees so certainly it has to be "sailed" all the time... even on anchor.  
 
I am still wondering how much load a free standing, fully 360 degree rotating wing would be... even in a hurricane.  The drag is far less than a bare cylindrical mast as long as it is allowed to weather vane.  As I've admitted, I don't have any aerodynamics and what I've picked up doesn't include the Katzmayr effect that he mentioned.  What I dug up didn't seem to be related... but I assume I'm just not getting it. 
 
But I'm still trying... or I'll build one and see what happens.  :)
 
Dennis


From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@gwi.net>
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 9:20:38 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Asymmetric Bi-directional Rudders

 

Rick,

  I'm very excited by the work you're doing. 

  I know that not everyone shares my short-tacking or short-shunting needs, but for me, minimal effort and time are important.  While a cruiser out on the open water might not care about rotating the rudders 270 degrees on each shunt, and might prefer independent rudders, I'd drool over being able to use a whipstaff to control linked rudders that go to a max of perhaps 20 degrees.

  Have you done an analysis on the sections developed by Tom Speer?

    http://www.basilisc us.com/ProaSecti ons/ProaIndex. html

  I don't know enough to be able to form an opinion; the only reason I bring them up is that a number of proa sites laud the Speer sections as the ultimate bidirectional foils.  It would be interesting to see how they perform with your software.

  Dennis: there's also some discussion of wing masts and rigid wing sails on the main site:

   http://www.tspeer. com/index. html

        - Mike


On 8/4/2010 5:26 AM, willoughby_rick wrote:

 

I have taken a look at what should be the best section for an asymmetric bidirectional rudder.

It threw up a few surprises. The best I could come up is a double ended version of a NACA 07 series:
http://www.rickwill .bigpondhosting. com/Double_ End_NACA07. png

At an Re# of 10E6 and aspect ratio of 4 it has an L/D of 27. It has flow separation on the trailing edge at all angle of operation that reduces at higher Re#. But it is no more than 3% of the chord in the normal operating range. The lowest Cd is 0.004.

By comparison a NACA0012 section at same Re# and AR has a best L/D of 17.7. The in-line Cd is actually higher than the asymmetric section at 0.009. One advantage is that it does not have flow separation until about 7 degrees AoA. It would be designed to work at about 4 degrees for nest L/D.

What surprised me is that the large diameter nose actually has better lift, less flow separation and lower minimum Cd than the pointy nose/tail version. The reason becomes apparent when you look at the pressure profile for the respective sections. Notably the 07 series was designed for a flat pressure profile. The NACA 16 series was a development that factored in air compression for higher speed subsonic flight. However not a factor for water although cavitation could need consideration.

This idea has a lot of upside with the one downside of flow separation and possible resulting vibration. There could be some benefit roughing up the nose/tail to help the flow stay attached - could be tested with a strip of sandpaper glued in place down the edges.

Rick

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