Two masts will each need to be as strong as a single mast as they have to be able to capsize the boat. However, they do not have to be as stiff as they are shorter. I have had success with the una rig on my El and will be trying it on Sol. Not sure I would recommend it to anyone else until I have some miles with it on the bigger boat. Therefore you need a ballestron on the single mast so there will not be a huge cost difference between the schooner and the ballestron.
A WAG is that the wing may be 10% better than a tube upwind, less downwind. I will have a better feel for this once Sol is launched. The wings are flat panels, but three of them, which then need to be joined.
Until we have built a wing mast, i am loathe to talk actual weight and cost numbers, but your estimates are probably in the ball park. Part of the wing mast set up I am going to use is the ability to use cheap sail cloth. Maybe Tyvek, although I am playing with fibreglass, which should be a lot stronger, cheaper and less prone to stretch. Consequently, you should delay any rig decisions until we have some results. My raid boat has two wing masts, same as yours, if that is any help.
The wing is foam cored, has a front, back and sheer web to build, a bunch of bulkheads and a pretty tricky assembly. A cheap sail is maybe 5k, an expensive one 15k or more. Hence the effort into sails that can be built from low cost materials.
Ok, time to change my drawings back over to round masts!! I was thinking that the wings were built as flat panels and that would make them easy. The difference between the tube and wing masts is half the price of the rest of the boat ($15K). Is that for masts of the same height, or masts of the same performance? The reason I am asking is that if I need 48' round masts, or 40' wing masts, the shipping is a factor.I am also going to have to re-examine the schooner idea. If each mast costs the same as the hulls, then maybe I need to stay with just one mast.Can you talk a bit about the cost tradeoffs between a single larger mast and 2 smaller ones, to get the same sail area? To put it in concrete terms, if I wanted the sail area of a harry, my choices would be one or two tube or wing masts. Would the costing look something like this?1 50' tube: $10K2 40' tubes: $20K1 45' wing: $25K2 37' wings: $40Kor am I over/under estimating some of these? (and yes, I know that we can't figuring pricing till we know all the specs. I am looking for educated guesses).- Gardner
robOn Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow.org> wrote:
I have never seriously considered buying premade panels, as making the panels doesn't seem that hard, but I am reconsidering because of the difficulty of finding a place to set up a table that long. Do you have any idea of what portion of that $31K for Solitarry is the panelmaking, and how much is the assembly?
I am surprised by the price difference between the round tube and wing masts. I had thought that making the wing was easier than making the tube, so that the price difference would just be based on weight. How much of that difference is the high tech sails?- GardnerOn Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com> wrote:
Hopefully, Steve will build one for himself, so he knows what he is doing. Agree that if it goes through the company, you will be lucky to get a realistic price.
My guys do not have a web presence (too busy to need one). Google flat panels, truck sides, foam, fibreglass, infusion and see what you can find. Not many people have tables as long as ours, but you may get lucky. Or try the KSS chat group and see if anyone wants to earn a few bucks making your panels and either assemble them yourself or get a local boat builder to do it under your supervision.
Or talk to the other guys on this list who are thinking about it and get all your panels at once from me and save on the shipping.
Or get us to build it. The Sol currently under way is costing $31,000 plus paint (between $1,000 and whatever you want to spend), tramp ($500-5,000) and rig (maybe $15,000 for a tube mast and dacron sail, $40,000 for a wing mast and high tech sail, not sure yet for a telescoping wing mast and sail) for a boat ready to sail.
Plus about $5,000 to ship it. I have just got some good prices and enthusiastic follow up from the guys at http://www.shipping-worldwide.com/ so try them for starters.
rob
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow.org> wrote:
I like the idea of an east coast US builder who is interested in building harryproas. I have my doubts about the pricing, since the build techniques are so drastically different from what they are used to, it has to be hard for them to adjust their build costs down by a factor of 10, until they see it done by someone else. When I am ready for quotes, I will send off to them, just to see.
I was trying to locate a flat panel manufacturer here in the US. It seems like they would actually be a better match than a boatbuilder for your techniques, but I am having no luck with google. I have tried to find your guys in Coomera, using google, but havent located them, which makes me think that I am using the wrong search terms. What would you search for to locate an equivalent company in the US?- GardnerOn Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com> wrote:
Got this from Steve Tofield, who is keen on a Sol and works for Lyman Morse in Maine. Those of you who are looking for a local builder may want to contact him. I have no idea how good/bad he is, but like his attitude.
rob
On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Steve Tofield <steve@lymanmorse.com> wrote:
Hi Rob, thanks for your reply, I just checked the Harryworld Map and see that there is some activity in the Northeast US. Must be our proximity to the South Pacific, kinda like the guys in Spitsbergen or wherever they are. Lots of snow on the ground up here but inside all is warm and productive.I've worked at LM on and off over the years, was the Service Manager for 4 years (Refits, storage etc on 18 to 100 footers) then went cruising for a year with my wife on our rebuilt Tartan 41 (S&S IOR racer cruiser like a Swan 43....)Now I'm the project development/owner's advocate /sales guy. Past lives have been rigging and boat building and sailing. Haven't been able to stray too far....For many years I was in Antigua during the sailing season and worked in Maine in the summer (not at LM)....Sailed solo from Curacao to Antigua and from Bermuda to Maine on my boat, and am planning on doing the Bermuda 1-2 this June. (Single hand to Bermuda/double hand back)Have always windsurfed etc and started sailing in Brazil in Hobie 14s in the seventies....(old...) Have also always been interested in proas and multis. Worked for Multi Composites years ago on constant camber boats and a still existent carbon rig on Dick Newick designed "Whitewings"....so now am interested in pulling a lightweight extreme proa together....and am intrigued by the Harryconcept and the look of Sol in particular. I see you blew off the second mast on the proto....Telescoping rig sounds fascinating....We have facility to build here. The full panel is possibility but may also have access to a bunch of prepreg carbon which would probably mean moulds...(do you thick one could torture the single skin carbon foam into shape if one were to use the panel system?)So, early days, but lots of energy!Steve