Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Ventilation
From: Doug Haines
Date: 5/15/2011, 6:40 PM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 

okay,
so you or someone,whoever brought the topic up, is suggesting that a hull protrusion foil would be better and make the boat go faster.
How much faster are we talkin'?.
I did ask ifONO was faster than BD, but maybe they haven't crossed paths yet.
 
I don't think I could live with hull exiting types because then you have the issue of breaking something and then needing to borrow Kevin's EPIRB when he is not using it at his local beach.
 
There is if it means anything to anyone, a fair difference in water level height between one side (leeward side is higher) than the other.
 
Doug

--- On Mon, 16/5/11, Mike Crawford <mcrawf@nuomo.com> wrote:

From: Mike Crawford <mcrawf@nuomo.com>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Ventilation
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 2:17

 
<<could I please get the layman's definition for what yer'all are talkin' about please.>>

  I shall attempt.

  It's not about a problem, but instead, an issue regarding optimization.

  The surface-penetrating foils will suck down air at speed, eliminating any lift the generate from their shape (in the way a wing generates lift on its "upper" surface, or a well-tuned sail generates lift on its leeward surface), and instead turning them from foils to boards that just catch water (the way a spinnaker catches air). 

  When compared to foils that extend from the bottom of a hull, the surface penetrating foils will require a lot more surface area in order to achieve effective steerage and leeway prevention.  This will result in extra drag, slowing the boat.

  Rob's current two-foil setup is optimized for kickup without damage, and hopefully, and easy reset to sailing after the kickup.  As a result, it needs larger foils than a boat with foils or foils and a daggerboard that exit the hull bottom.

  Rick's design is optimized for speed.  Since the foils are all under water, and can't suck in in any air at high speeds, or interfere with various flows of water, they can generate lift as well as just force water out of the way, and can therefore be significantly smaller.  Adding a knot or two to the top end.  In a three-hour race, that could result in an extra nautical mile (or several, if you've got good wind and a lot of reaches).

  Which is better?  That all depends upon your criteria. 

  Since I don't race, I'll go for the kick-up without a second thought.  Not having to worry about my boat sinking, or becoming inoperable, due to a sand bar, log, submerged container, or whale, does a lot for me.  We have a lot of shoals and lobster trap warps in Maine, and there are times it's tough to avoid them, particularly the trap warps -- boat traffic sometimes determines one's path.

  The other benefit of the kick-up design would also like being able to see the foils, raise them, clear them of seaweed, or work on them, and so forth.  On my current cat, I can easily kick up the rudders to remove the weed, which slows me down like a drogue, but I can't quite do the same thing with my daggerboard. 

  *However*, If I were to race, it would be tough to argue against smaller, faster, non-ventilating foils.  If the goal is shortest elapsed time, this design wins.  It is without a doubt more optimized.

---

  That said, it would definitely be interesting to see how large an end plate is required to keep Rob's kick-up rudders from ventilating, and if the resulting design could be competitive with the underwater foils.  My guess is that the plate would definitely help, but that it also wouldn't quite equal Rick's planned design.  But I don't have the software to prove this hunch.

        - Mike



Doug Haines wrote:
 
could I please get the layman's definition for what yer'all are talkin' about please.
It is either onee of the theoretical non issue type things that gets brought up here by certain academia, or it is the actual rudder problem that is happening to a few harry's.
I don't exactly understand what those bigger boats are having happen, but it does sound like my troubles on sidecar.
perhaps rudolf would chime in again - just to help clarify things up for me.
I cleard up every rudder issue i had including massive "ventilation?" and no bite at all/ unsteerable.
sidecar has had no dilemas whatsoever since i increased the rudder blade size.

Doug

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