On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 12:53 AM, '.' eruttan@yahoo.com [harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups..com.au> wrote:

 

On April 25, 2018 4:40:33 AM UTC, "Rob Denney harryproa@gmail.com [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:

>Many years ago we built some 12-14' skiffs with extruded polystyrene core.

> They worked pretty well, but one of them had some major delamination which proved to be caused by paint solvents passing through pin holes and dissolving the core. They also suffered a lot in high impact areas.

Infusion would not leave pinholes, right?

Yes.  The laminates we were using were very light, and woven so pin holes were near inevitable.​

>The light skins would deflect the core, which would not spring back fast enough so the skin would debond. We also use polystyrene for the impact absorbing bows on most harrys. With a layer or 2 of glass over it, depending on the size and density of the foam), it works well.
>The problems are the low impact, shear and compression strength and modulus so it can't be used in high load areas (between the rudders on the lee hull or anywhere that is walked on or sees high local loads, like the hull bottoms), which does not leave much.

Do you remember what type of polystyrene you used? There are many grades, but if it was construction insulation, it was probably only 15psi. Do you have any interest in seeing if higher grades are worth it? If you exceed the psi (kPa) it deforms.

​15 psi is vacuum, so it was stronger than that.  It was putruded blue Dow styrofoam, if that helps.​

You don't spec any lower grades than H80 either? Like H60 or H40? Is it not worth it? In the engineering software, can you just substitute a different material to see if it works? I think the engineering info is in the sheets I linked. Or is this a 'we know what works, so we do that' thing?

​Mostly it's cost vs weight.  there are plenty of places you can use the lighter foam, but the weight savings are not huge, the cost difference (here) is.​

>The greasy surface is hard to bond to, but a hot wired surface is not much better as it leaves a smooth(ish) surface with none of the partially open bubbles that increase the bonding area.

Good point. Although, one would be treating the surface for an infusion, so i imagine it might have enough extra grip? And one could sand the HotWired surface. At least the grease is gone.

​Sanding the Dow stuff was not much fun.  The surface was hard, then it was gone, so a lot of divots and unevenness.​

>I agree that H80 is costly. Some savings can be made by using it in squares with say 50mm/2" spaces between them where the skins are joined.

I do not understand this. Is this a hollow box section? Can i get more details?

​Take a sheet and cut 2" wide pieces out of it at 500mm centres in both directions.  Angle the edges ​and glass it in.  The skins meet where the cut outs are.  The vac bag needs to be applied carefully or you will get big pubbles of resin in the spaces where it did not sit down tight.

>This is done on the mega cats and tris to reduce the core sheer loads. On the cargo/ferry, we are looking at solid laminates (as the survey requirements are so heavy that core is not really helpful) with stringers where required. These can by laid up over polystyrene in the infusion as the core is only a former, or built in a mould and glued in. Both these result in a non flat inside skin which is not ideal in living areas.
>A bit more work and weight, you can also use timber or glass stringers and
>fill the spaces between them with polystyrene and glass over the lot.

Thats neat! You can use the polystyrene to hold the glass stringer in place. And not have an air void to fill in a collision.

>Infusion resin does not travel far across compacted fibreglass. Infusion medium (similar to shade cloth) over the top of the laminate is one solution, another is infusion mediums which remain part of the laminate (eg Soric,) and add some thickness but also weight. the former and the resin it absorbs gets peeled off and thrown away. Intelligent Infusion uses small grooves in the foam to distribute the resin. Adds a bit of weight, but uses less resin than either of the others. All vac bag and infusion jobs must have holed in the core to let the air out and the resin in. These are usually 1-2mm diameter at 50-100mm centres. The grooves and holes can be machine cut and drilled, at a price, or it is easy enough, though tedious, to do it yourself.

I need to get an intelligent infusion kit from you and get started doing this. Do the foam holes follow the feed and vac lines over the part

​I don't have a kit, try your local materials supplier.

>600 gsm per side of 20mm foam is a common standard hull laminate for 12m/40' cats, the stressed parts of 40' harrys and the unstressed parts of the bigger boats. 600 is about as light as you can go for areas which will be heavily trafficked.

I appreciate your tolerating my questions. I hope they do not bother you too much.

​Not at all.  I can, and frequently do, talk boats, building and rigs all day long.  Keep it coming.​

Thanks Rob!