Subject: [harryproa] Overall beam, lifting hull.
From: "Doug Haines doha720@yahoo.co.uk [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Date: 6/26/2018, 3:01 AM
To: "Rob Denney harryproa@gmail.com [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 

From following R2AK in S.A. I looked some more at the cat G32 that seemed to do as well or better than most of the other competitors. It is an unusual race with logs and tides and twisting channels, so as Rob says it could be a challenge to find the best boat for it.
I had seen this Gougean brother's boat before, but looking at it again I can see the positive similarities with an HP, such as long waterline length and fairly light weight and narrow hulls.
The point that is taken to the extreme with the G32  though is the narrowness of the overall beam. It is hardly wider than a beach cat and is designed to heel and get the ww hull up at least partially out of the water. This is accommodated by the righting system as you would not want to sail on the edge without having a way of righting from a capsize.
I actually like this aggressive attitude towards getting higher speeds by sailing closer to the edge of capsize.
To compare this with a fairly close cousin of the Elemenatrry Camper, which also had long W/L length with minimal accomodations - I was never confident enough to sail as hard as I probably should have.
Because I was not built and prepared to handle a capsize I therefore had to be more conservative in sailing it. Admittedly I could have done a much lighter boat build and so it may have flown the hull with less effort and performed closer to the sport Elementarry version. Still I think this safety threshold of being scared of ever capsizing would help to let people sail more aggressively and to closer to it's limits.
This is for the builder/owner to decide if they will be wanting to push their boat that much. The design would seem to already be potentially self-righting.
It seems a shame to not use the full potential of the smaller sized HP's. 

Doug

On ‎Monday‎, ‎25‎ ‎June‎ ‎2018‎ ‎08‎:‎35‎:‎31‎ ‎AM‎ ‎AWST, Rob Denney harryproa@gmail.com [harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:


 


Like many others posting here, I pretty much decided that multihull is the better way for me.  If anyone is interested in the whys-fors of what I looked through / considered, then feel free to ask, else I will not bore the list.  So far I have ended up narrowing it down my 'first round draft picks' to Bernd Kohler (cat, eco 6 to start) and Rob (proa)..


End game for me is to consider the idea of live aboard/cruising as possible life choice.  But it will be a gradual gearing downing though.  I imagine there would even be some years marina bound for internet use for work while I built up more of a cruising kitty / cushion, so that is a thing.  In any event I am making beginning moves in that direction now.  I joined up with a local boat builders group, and even went sailing for the first time last Saturday.  I consider it a rousing success in that I tacked and gybed, all while managing the tiller and the sail for a few hours - and no one got thunked in the head, nor did anyone end up cast into the drink.  Yay me.

Well done!  Nothing beats time in a boat for learning how to sail.   Sailing a proa is far easier, as there is no tacking or gybing, the boom does not get anywhere near your head and no one has to move, so no chance of falling in the drink.   


Now building will be a new to me, I am not exactly handy (yet), but am not completely inept either if I set my mind to something.  Still, the idea of building a largish live aboard from the get go seems a bit of a stretch..  Instead, a smaller day sailor or tender seems more in order as a way to build up the skills (and minimize the costs of oopsies) needed to tackle something more complex.  Also, it will produce results in a faster time that can then be used while something else is being built.   Keep in mind I need to learn a lot besides the building itself - like sailing.  So, this makes sense to me at least, even if it adds a year to the overall build time.    

Smart move. A tender would teach you the basics, and give you something to use while building the big one. 
​An Elementarry or similar would allow you to hone your sailing skills.  ​
 


So desirable wants for the first boat beyond normal harry stuff?


1) Can carry a few (2-5) folks for day sailing / fishing plus say two coolers, two anchors and chain, a small electric outboard / trolling motor and its’ battery(es). 

​Elementarry sails well with 2-3 people, 5 plus cooler etc would be a squash and not perform very well..   Extending the hulls would resolve this.  Either wider or longer.  


2) Trailerable <= 10’ width.  <= 8’6” is ideal as nothing special is needed, but in most of the states that matter to me 10’ is just a fairly cheap permit added on (and of course dealing with maneuvering that extra width)

There are numerous options, depending on how often you intend to fold it and whether you will have assistance. Telescoping, scissoring and demountable beams all wor
​k​


3) Reasonably fastish setup and pack away for re-trailering.  One person can do it with a bit of practice hopefully. 

Scissoring is the quickest
​ and if the boat is light enough, moving it around on your own is easier.  
 
​The devil is in the detail.  The folding and getting on and off the trailer is pretty quick.  Removing the tramp and sails, packing everything away and tieing it all down is what takes the time.​  
If you really wanted to speed up launching, it could be made 10' wide with demountable beams.  Short distances, leave it ​
​in one piece and drive carefully; long trips, break it down​.  Because the windward hull is so light, there are also options for a tilting trailer, such as the Tornado cats use.  


4) Design can be modified to be built in (ideally) one side of a two car garage Say 21’ by 8’.  Final assembly / painting can be outside/elsewhere, but most of the work needs to be done in the smaller area.  

Not a problem, 
​but the lee hull will have a join, or (better) removable ends.  
8' does
​ ​
not allow much walking around space. There may be some days when the car gets parked outside. 


5) Single handable in a case something goes wrong, or I feel like solo sailing.

​The harryproa advantage.  ​
No foredeck work
​;​
 no extras
​;​
 the ability to stop the boat to reef, or ease the sails to slow down on any point of sail, in any wind strength
​'​
 anchor winch and sail control lines near the helmsman
​;​
 able to sail in either direction after lifting the anchor al
​l 
make singlehanding easy. 


6) Will undoubtedly need after sale support.  Ok, so not really a ‘boat thing’ but important none the less.

I can, and sometimes do, talk boats all day long. We offer as much Skype and email advice as you want, and I am more than willing to come over and lend a hand with the building or the sailing, if you pay the air fare, or I am passing through.  


7) Relatively cheap and easy to build

Depends on the size, complexity and materials, but for anything you can live on and trailer, Intelligent Infusion will 
​​
beat ply on both these scores. 
​As discussed on the other thread, you could build an Elementarry in ply if saving a few bucks and lack of willingness to try something new were factors outweighing the weight and time savings.  


This gives some questions on Elementary and Ex40.  I will start with the El since that seems the better first boat fit for now, and leave the Ex40 questions for later posts if needed.


>> Elementary.     


1) It seems like an older design versus the ex40/Air/Cruiser series.  Is there an updated version, or would that not make much difference in build time, performance and costs?   Example, I think that the elementary is telescoping versus the newer ‘horizontal folding arm’ version of the Air/Ex?   Or, the more rounded looking versus the newer more squared off look - presumably for easier building, etc.

​Elementarry Mk 2 is in the final stages of plan drawing.  It has the Intelligent Infusion hulls and masts mounted in the beams so the lee hull can be lower, adding more folding options.  ​


2) I am interested in hearing about (and using) the wing sail results as well as new rudders. Would def consider these.

​Hopefully, by the time you are ready to build the rig I will have stopped faffing about and will know what works and what doesn't.  Folding up a wing section from a flat panel did not work much better for the mast fairing than it did for the rudder blade, but as it is larger and lighter, it should be possible to bend it around formers.  The first two formers are curing as I type..  All going well, the first section of fairing will be finished this week.​


3) Is there a ballpark sail away materials costs (or at least mat list) and build time estimate?  I will assume to add about 20% to that time given I am a newb.  To make things easy assume the schooner rig since that is probably more known.


Composite Materials, incl glass overlaps,
excluding wastage (about 10%) and paint:

11 sq m 5mm perforated and scored H80 foam
47 sq m 10mm perforated and scored H80 foam
120 sq m 400 gsm double bias fibreglass
9 sq m 400 gsm unidirectional fibreglass
80 lin m 70k carbon tow (Zoltek)  
55 sq m 300 carbon uni
75 kgs infusing resin
4 kgs of epoxy glue
40 sq m peel ply
40 sqm vac bag
6 sheets mdf

​Build time should be under 1,000 hours, depending on all the usual factors.  It will be a lot easier if you do some practice infusions before you start on the bigger and more involved items..  ​


4) Dimensions.  Approx weight?  Payload?  Folded width on a trailer? Mast height?   

Leeward hull length: 7.5 m / 25′
Windward hull length: 4.5 m / 10′
Beam: 4 m / 14'8″
Empty weight: 140 kgs / 310 lbs 
Payload approx: 160 kgs / 352 lbs
Sail area:22 sq m / 236 sq ft
Draft: Rudders Up 0.1m/ 4″
Draft: Rudders Down 1 m / 3’ 4″
Righting Moment: 900 kgm/6,500 ft lbs
Berths: 1-2 singles in the camping version

​Trailer width will depend on whether it is demountable or folding, but both will be under 2.4m/8'.    Mast height depends on what you want to do with it, but the standard is 8m/27', of which 0.7m/28" is bury.


5) How do you set up / lower the mast?  Can one person do it?   Overall ballpark setup / take down time?

​You can tip the hull on it's side and put the mast in the hole which is easy if there is enough room, pick the mast (10 kgs/22 lbs) up and place it in the hole if it is not too windy ​or use a gin pole with a block and tackle.  The latter is so easy that it is the way you will end up doing it.  All of these are easy solo.  Ball park set up assuming everything is clipped on and optimised for speed would be a couple of minutes.  



Comments / Thoughts?

​There are options and trade offs between performance, load carrying  and ease of use. ​None are critical, but deciding how you are going to use the boat and designing/building it accordingly will make using it more enjoyable.  This discussion is one of the enjoyable parts of boat design for me, so I look forward to optimising it for your use, either here or privately.

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 9:22 AM, gladius_12345@yahoo.com [harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:
 

Like many others posting here, I pretty much decided that multihull is the better way for me.  If anyone is interested in the whys-fors of what I looked through / considered, then feel free to ask, else I will not bore the list.  So far I have ended up narrowing it down my 'first round draft picks' to Bernd Kohler (cat, eco 6 to start) and Rob (proa).


End game for me is to consider the idea of live aboard/cruising as possible life choice.  But it will be a gradual gearing downing though.  I imagine there would even be some years marina bound for internet use for work while I built up more of a cruising kitty / cushion, so that is a thing.  In any event I am making beginning moves in that direction now.  I joined up with a local boat builders group, and even went sailing for the first time last Saturday.  I consider it a rousing success in that I tacked and gybed, all while managing the tiller and the sail for a few hours - and no one got thunked in the head, nor did anyone end up cast into the drink.  Yay me.


Now building will be a new to me, I am not exactly handy (yet), but am not completely inept either if I set my mind to something.  Still, the idea of building a largish live aboard from the get go seems a bit of a stretch.  Instead, a smaller day sailor or tender seems more in order as a way to build up the skills (and minimize the costs of oopsies) needed to tackle something more complex.  Also, it will produce results in a faster time that can then be used while something else is being built.   Keep in mind I need to learn a lot besides the building itself - like sailing.  So, this makes sense to me at least, even if it adds a year to the overall build time.    


So desirable wants for the first boat beyond normal harry stuff?


1) Can carry a few (2-5) folks for day sailing / fishing plus say two coolers, two anchors and chain, a small electric outboard / trolling motor and its’ battery(es). 


2) Trailerable <= 10’ width.  <= 8’6” is ideal as nothing special is needed, but in most of the states that matter to me 10’ is just a fairly cheap permit added on (and of course dealing with maneuvering that extra width)


3) Reasonably fastish setup and pack away for re-trailering.  One person can do it with a bit of practice hopefully. 


4) Design can be modified to be built in (ideally) one side of a two car garage Say 21’ by 8’.  Final assembly / painting can be outside/elsewhere, but most of the work needs to be done in the smaller area.  


5) Single handable in a case something goes wrong, or I feel like solo sailing.


6) Will undoubtedly need after sale support.  Ok, so not really a ‘boat thing’ but important none the less.


7) Relatively cheap and easy to build


This gives some questions on Elementary and Ex40.  I will start with the El since that seems the better first boat fit for now, and leave the ex40 questions for later posts if needed.


>> Elementary..     


1) It seems like an older design versus the ex40/Air/Cruiser series.  Is there an updated version, or would that not make much difference in build time, performance and costs?   Example, I think that the elementary is telescoping versus the newer ‘horizontal folding arm’ version of the Air/Ex?   Or, the more rounded looking versus the newer more squared off look - presumably for easier building, etc.


2) I am interested in hearing about (and using) the wing sail results as well as new rudders. Would def consider these.


3) Is there a ballpark sail away materials costs (or at least mat list) and build time estimate?  I will assume to add about 20% to that time given I am a newb.  To make things easy assume the schooner rig since that is probably more known.


4) Dimensions.  Approx weight?  Payload?  Folded width on a trailer? Mast height?   


5) How do you set up / lower the mast?  Can one person do it?   Overall ballpark setup / take down time?



Comments / Thoughts?


 


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Posted by: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk>
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