You can get kleen breeze rather cheap I understand. Far more cargo than you need.

On June 28, 2018 2:35:24 PM UTC, "StoneTool owly@ttc-cmc.net [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:
|Doug:
|     Payload..............    All the boats out there are performance
|oriented.  The compromises are all made in the direction of speed, and
|to the detriment of payload.  I've done the number again and again as
|to
|what just the basic stuff adds up to for voyaging.  The only conclusion
|
|I have been able to reach is that all of the cats except for the
|monster
|"condo cats" are built to satisfy the market for daysailors / casual
|racers first.    As I intend to make this my home while voyaging, long
|term.... that is quite a few years, with no home base at all, payload
|means a great deal more to me than to most people.   Clearly virtually
|all of these boats, when used on passage, or serious long term cruising
|
|are grossly overloaded.   Considering ....pounds per inch above
|waterline, this is not necessarily alarmingly obvious when looking at
|them.
|     The boat best suited to my use "out of the box" really is Richard
|Woods Sagitta, but it offers only 900kg payload (1980 lbs).    That
|sounds like a lot of food and water to most folks, but payload includes
|
|far more than that.  It includes at least 500 lbs per person of body
|weight and gear and food & water.  It includes all the ground tackle,
|the engines and fuel, the dinghy, emergency life raft, spares and
|tools,
|battery bank & charging system, everything in the galley that isn't
|part
|of the basic shell of the boat, bedding, safety equipment, harnesses,
|stantions and lifelines, electronics, computers, books, toys.......    
|
|I've drawn up what I think are realistic lists with estimated weights.
|     Factory built boats that fit my size criteria are pathetic to say
|the least.  They are for the most part simply no made anymore, and
|those
|that are, are not designed for the job I have in mind. The earlier
|generation boats that are available are simply unsafe.   Too narrow,
|most having decking all the way forward, too heavy, not enough payload.
|     The market in smaller cats is for boats for weekenders and short
|term cruisers, and everybody really seems to want a "condo cat".   The
|result is that there really isn't anything out there that fits.
|
|     It took me some time to figure this out and reach the conclusion
|that I really have little choice but to build in order to get what I
|want.   I don't fit the mold..... I'm not the guy these people are
|designing boats for.  They cater to the weekender, and to the family
|man
|who wan't BIG.   I would still rather buy than build...... but it
|really
|doesn't appear to be an option.
|
|H.W.
|
|
|
|
|On 06/28/2018 07:12 AM, Doug Haines doha720@yahoo.co.uk [harryproa]
|wrote:
|>
|> Stone cold sober,
|>
|> I was just browsing boat design net. I enjoyed the thread you started
|
|> about ply versus infusion you started and Rob contributed to. I
|> learned some things and was more convinced of intel infusions
|> benefits. So i just looked for your otgher posts and saw where you
|> seemed to say that you had no intention to build a boat but was going
|
|> to buy instead.
|> This was one where you asked about paylaod and finished weights and
|> Woods replied.
|> So was that whaf you meant and have you changed uour mind? Did the
|> sound of using intel infusion make building seem not such a bad idea?
|> Personally i would stay with idea of buying unless you wanted an HP
|> which could not probably be bought second hand anywhere yet.
|>
|> Doug
|> --------------------------------------------
|> On Tue, 26/6/18, StoneTool owly@ttc-cmc.net [harryproa]
|> <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:
|>
|> Subject: [harryproa] cedar strip versus infused sandwich
|> To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
|> Received: Tuesday, 26 June, 2018, 11:43 PM
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>     I'm sure folks are getting tired of
|> hearing about my proposed cat
|>
|> project.   I'm still sort of going in circles as far
|> as deciding exactly
|>
|> what to build, and have acquired several sets of study
|> plans.   The boat
|>
|> that comes closes to fitting my criteria "out of the
|> box" so to speak,
|>
|> is the Woods  Sagitta, which unfortunately due to it's
|> cedar strip hull
|>
|> and knuckle, does not lend itself well to any sort of
|> "intelligent
|>
|> infusion".  There is no "easy way".  The
|> choices are to build using
|>
|> strip planked foam (or cedar), hand finishing, and infusing
|> the interior
|>
|> and exterior separately, or building a half hull plug, hand
|> finished,
|>
|> and pulling a female mold off that............ NOT an
|> attractive
|>
|> proposition, and one that would require a huge amount of
|> labor that
|>
|> could only be justified by molding multiple hulls from
|> that.........
|>
|> Something I have no desire to do.  I want to build a boat,
|> not a business!
|>
|>
|>
|>     In looking at  Richard Woods designs, I stumbled
|> across an
|>
|> interesting thing.    Two boats that are in his
|> description essentially
|>
|> the same boat, one in cedar strip (hull and cabin top), and
|> one in
|>
|> plywood.   The cedar strip boat was 12.5% lighter than the
|> plywood
|>
|> boat.   The boats are the next size up from what I'm
|> looking at.
|>
|> Slightly different in length due to different bow shape, and
|> ranging
|>
|> from 14" longer to 2' longer than Sagitta.   The
|> shorter boat (Tamar),
|>
|> at 14" longer than Sagitta and very similar in many
|> ways is 1200kg
|>
|> (2640) heavier than Sagitta, offering nothing that is of
|> interest to me
|>
|> except 300kg additional payload.  It is of plywood.   The
|> Eclipse being
|>
|> the longer of the two is lighter than Tamar by 250kg, and
|> the only thing
|>
|> I can point to that would explain the difference is plywood
|> construction.
|>
|>
|>
|>     The implication here is that cedar strip construction
|> offers about
|>
|> half as much weight reduction potential as infused foam
|> sandwich, at a
|>
|> far lower cost in terms of materials (here), but a far
|> higher cost in
|>
|> terms of labor (presumably)  That suggests that the
|> potential savings on
|>
|> Sagitta's empty weight using strip plank infused foam
|> and infused foam
|>
|> panels as compared to strip planked cedar and plywood should
|> only range
|>
|> somewhere between 135kg and 225kg (about 300-500 pounds).
|> That hardly
|>
|> justifies the additional cost in materials (all else
|> aside)
|>
|>
|>
|>
|> *********************************
|>
|>
|>
|>     On a parallel track, I've been working out how to
|> stretch the KD860
|>
|> to 30' without getting into a lot of highly complex
|> calculations,
|>
|> etc.    It is not a simple matter of adding a percentage
|> between each
|>
|> bulkhead or some such strategy, as the construction is flat
|> sheet, and
|>
|> the end result is that the skin must lay properly on the
|> bulkheads.
|>
|> Essentially the hull sides must be some part of a
|> theoretical cone
|>
|> shape.    The process begins with laying out the flat
|> hull bottom at a
|>
|> reduced scale. For convenience 10%, maintaining the straight
|> slope of
|>
|> the forward end, and very slightly increasing the aft
|> radius, setting up
|>
|> the widths as appropriate at the bulkheads, and using  a
|> piece of light
|>
|> weight plywood or heavy construction board to adjust and
|> ensure that
|>
|> everything lays properly.  The bottom as laid consists of
|> horizontal
|>
|> sticks where the bulkheads will be, and a vertical central
|> rib at right
|>
|> angles to each of these members gives a reference to work
|> from.    Once
|>
|> the bottom is laid, construction board is laid against the
|> bottom
|>
|> members, and flared to the desired width at the sheer line
|> from bow to
|>
|> stern.  Once the desired shape is achieved and made fair,
|> verticals and
|>
|> horizontals are added at each bulkhead location, creating
|> half bulkhead
|>
|> templates to scale.  Actual scale bulkheads are made from
|> these and
|>
|> mounted inverted, using a strongback screwed to the
|> workbench, and the
|>
|> actual scale model made from them.  Once a satisfactory
|> result is
|>
|> achieved, the 10% bulkheads can easily be scaled up to full
|> size.
|>
|>
|>
|>     As I'm not actually ready to build the boat, I
|> have plenty of time
|>
|> to mess about with this.   I don't do TV, etc, so my
|> spare time is
|>
|> dedicated to projects anyway.   It's my nature to work
|> with my hands and
|>
|> brain, and calculator.   I'm not quite set up to do
|> this model project
|>
|> yet..... I intend to build a project table specific to this
|> model.     I
|>
|> tend to spend a lot of thought time, working out the methods
|> before
|>
|> cutting wood.    In the end I've found that this
|> saves me a lot of time
|>
|> going down "blind alleys" and redoing things.
|>
|>
|>
|> H.W.
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
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