Thanks Rob.
I've followed online proa sagas, so i understand Russell must hsve grown up with sailing and building so is most likely accomplished.
About ths pictures of the G32, i think it is nice seeing a boat with a cabin (even if onlg a very small cabin - comparable to El or new 10m Camper) sailing up on one hull.
Perhaps that was an extra effort for the cameras or maybe it is able to be kept up long periods.
I aspire to trying something more adventurous like that, given that G3w and a small HP both can be righted, then the thing that kne would need to aim at for my own future HP wojld be to not be so conservative with sail area.
I was not game enough to push Sidecar very hard. Build quality and mast strength also are things which add to your confidence in the boat.
Doug
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/7/18, Rob Denney harryproa@gmail.com [harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Overall beam, lifting hull.
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Received: Sunday, 1 July, 2018, 3:11 PM
The G32 has some similarities to
harrys, but as you say, it severely lacks righting moment so
it can be trailerable. The one that did the R2AK was
prepped and sailed by Russ Brown of Jzerro fame. Russ is a
boatbuilder extraordinaire (check out his blog for some nice
finishing techniques) and a superb seaman. His boat was
almost certainly the best prepared in the fleet. He did
not sail at night to avoid the logs, miss the tides and get
some sleep, won the solo division comfortably (2nd year
running) and finished 9th overall. His pedal propellor
system was designed by Rick Willoughby who sails on the 18m
Melbourne harryproa.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at
5:01 PM, Doug Haines doha720@yahoo.co.uk
[harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
wrote:
From following
R2AK in S.A. I looked some more at the cat G32 that seemed
to do as well or better than most of the other competitors.
It is an unusual race with logs and tides and twisting
channels, so as Rob says it could be a challenge to find the
best boat for it.I had
seen this Gougean brother's boat before, but looking at
it again I can see the positive similarities with an HP,
such as long waterline length and fairly light weight and
narrow hulls.The point that
is taken to the extreme with the G32 though is the
narrowness of the overall beam. It is hardly wider than a
beach cat and is designed to heel and get the ww hull up at
least partially out of the water. This is accommodated by
the righting system as you would not want to sail on the
edge without having a way of righting from a
capsize.I actually
like this aggressive attitude towards getting higher speeds
by sailing closer to the edge of capsize.To compare this with a fairly
close cousin of the Elemenatrry Camper, which also had long
W/L length with minimal accomodations - I was never
confident enough to sail as hard as I probably should
have.Because I was
not built and prepared to handle a capsize I therefore had
to be more conservative in sailing it. Admittedly I could
have done a much lighter boat build and so it may have flown
the hull with less effort and performed closer to the sport
Elementarry version. Still I think this safety threshold of
being scared of ever capsizing would help to let people sail
more aggressively and to closer to it's
limits.This is for
the builder/owner to decide if they will be wanting to push
their boat that much. The design would seem to already be
potentially self-righting.It seems a shame to not use the
full potential of the smaller sized HP's.
Doug
On Monday, 25 June
2018 08:35:31 AM AWST, Rob
Denney harryproa@gmail..com
[harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
wrote:
Like many others posting
here, I pretty much decided that multihull is the better way
for me. If anyone is interested in the whys-fors of what I
looked through / considered, then feel free to ask, else I
will not bore the list. So far I have ended up narrowing
it down my 'first round draft picks' to Bernd Kohler
(cat, eco 6 to start) and Rob (proa)..
End game for me is to
consider the idea of live aboard/cruising as possible life
choice. But it will be a gradual gearing downing though.
I imagine there would even be some years marina bound for
internet use for work while I built up more of a cruising
kitty / cushion, so that is a thing. In any event I am
making beginning moves in that direction now. I joined up
with a local boat builders group, and even went sailing for
the first time last Saturday. I consider it a rousing
success in that I tacked and gybed, all while managing the
tiller and the sail for a few hours - and no one got thunked
in the head, nor did anyone end up cast into the drink.
Yay me.Well done!
Nothing beats time in a boat for learning how to sail.
Sailing a proa is far easier, as there is no tacking or
gybing, the boom does not get anywhere near your head and no
one has to move, so no chance of falling in the drink.
Now building will be a new
to me, I am not exactly handy (yet), but am not completely
inept either if I set my mind to something. Still, the
idea of building a largish live aboard from the get go seems
a bit of a stretch.. Instead, a smaller day sailor or
tender seems more in order as a way to build up the skills
(and minimize the costs of oopsies) needed to tackle
something more complex. Also, it will produce results in a
faster time that can then be used while something else is
being built. Keep in mind I need to learn a lot besides
the building itself - like sailing. So, this makes sense
to me at least, even if it adds a year to the overall build
time.. Smart move. A tender would teach you the
basics, and give you something to use while building the big
one.. An Elementarry or similar would
allow you to hone your sailing skills.
So desirable wants for the
first boat beyond normal harry stuff?
1) Can carry a few (2-5)
folks for day sailing / fishing plus say two coolers, two
anchors and chain, a small electric outboard / trolling
motor and its’
battery(es). Elementarry
sails well with 2-3 people, 5 plus cooler etc would be a
squash and not perform very well.. Extending the hulls
would resolve this. Either wider or longer.
2) Trailerable <= 10’
width. <= 8’6” is ideal as nothing special is
needed, but in most of the states that matter to me 10’ is
just a fairly cheap permit added on (and of course dealing
with maneuvering that extra
width)There are numerous options, depending on how
often you intend to fold it and whether you will have
assistance. Telescoping, scissoring and demountable beams
all work.
3) Reasonably fastish setup
and pack away for re-trailering. One person can do it with
a bit of practice
hopefully. Scissoring is the quickest and if the boat is light
enough, moving it around on your own is easier.
The
devil is in the detail. The folding and getting on and off
the trailer is pretty quick. Removing the tramp and sails,
packing everything away and tieing it all down is what takes
the time. If you really wanted to speed up
launching, it could be made 10' wide with demountable
beams. Short distances, leave it in
one piece and drive carefully; long trips, break it
down. Because the windward hull is so light, there are
also options for a tilting trailer, such as the Tornado cats
use.
4) Design can be modified
to be built in (ideally) one side of a two car garage Say
21’ by 8’. Final assembly / painting can be
outside/elsewhere, but most of the work needs to be done in
the smaller
area. Not a problem, but the lee hull will have a
join, or (better) removable ends. 8' does not allow much walking
around space. There may be some days when the car gets
parked outside.
5) Single handable in a
case something goes wrong, or I feel like solo
sailing.The harryproa advantage.
No foredeck work; no extras; the ability to stop
the boat to reef, or ease the sails to slow down on any
point of sail, in any wind strength' anchor winch and
sail control lines near the helmsman; able to sail in
either direction after lifting the anchor all make singlehanding
easy.
6) Will undoubtedly need
after sale support. Ok, so not really a ‘boat thing’
but important none the
less.I
can, and sometimes do, talk boats all day long. We offer as
much Skype and email advice as you want, and I am more than
willing to come over and lend a hand with the building or
the sailing, if you pay the air fare, or I am passing
through.
7)
Relatively cheap and easy to
buildDepends on the
size, complexity and materials, but for anything you can
live on and trailer, Intelligent Infusion will beat ply on both these
scores. As
discussed on the other thread, you could build an
Elementarry in ply if saving a few bucks and lack of
willingness to try something new were factors outweighing
the weight and time savings.
This gives some questions
on Elementary and Ex40. I will start with the El since
that seems the better first boat fit for now, and leave the
Ex40 questions for later posts if needed.
>> Elementary.
1) It seems like an older
design versus the ex40/Air/Cruiser series. Is there an
updated version, or would that not make much difference in
build time, performance and costs? Example, I think that
the elementary is telescoping versus the newer ‘horizontal
folding arm’ version of the Air/Ex? Or, the more
rounded looking versus the newer more squared off look -
presumably for easier building,
etc.Elementarry
Mk 2 is in the final stages of plan drawing. It has the
Intelligent Infusion hulls and masts mounted in the beams so
the lee hull can be lower, adding more folding options.
2) I am interested in
hearing about (and using) the wing sail results as well as
new rudders. Would def consider
these.Hopefully,
by the time you are ready to build the rig I will have
stopped faffing about and will know what works and what
doesn't. Folding up a wing section from a flat panel
did not work much better for the mast fairing than it did
for the rudder blade, but as it is larger and lighter, it
should be possible to bend it around formers. The first
two formers are curing as I type.. All going well, the
first section of fairing will be finished this
week.
3) Is
there a ballpark sail away materials costs (or at least mat
list) and build time estimate? I will assume to add about
20% to that time given I am a newb. To make things easy
assume the schooner rig since that is probably more
known.
Composite Materials, incl glass
overlaps,
excluding wastage
(about 10%) and paint:
11 sq m 5mm perforated and scored
H80 foam47 sq m 10mm perforated and scored H80
foam120 sq m 400 gsm double bias
fibreglass9 sq m 400 gsm unidirectional
fibreglass80 lin m 70k carbon tow (Zoltek)
55 sq m 300 carbon uni75 kgs
infusing resin4 kgs of epoxy glue40 sq
m peel ply40 sqm vac bag6 sheets
mdf
Build
time should be under 1,000 hours, depending on all the usual
factors. It will be a lot easier if you do some practice
infusions before you start on the bigger and more involved
items..
4) Dimensions. Approx
weight? Payload? Folded width on a trailer? Mast
height? Leeward hull
length: 7.5 m / 25′Windward hull length: 4.5 m
/ 10′Beam: 4 m / 14'8″Empty
weight: 140 kgs / 310 lbs Payload approx: 160
kgs / 352 lbsSail area:22 sq m / 236 sq
ftDraft: Rudders Up 0.1m/ 4″Draft:
Rudders Down 1 m / 3’ 4″Righting Moment: 900
kgm/6,500 ft lbsBerths: 1-2 singles in the
camping version
Trailer
width will depend on whether it is demountable or folding,
but both will be under 2.4m/8'. Mast height depends
on what you want to do with it, but the standard is
8m/27', of which 0.7m/28" is bury.
5) How do you set up /
lower the mast? Can one person do it? Overall ballpark
setup / take down time?You
can tip the hull on it's side and put the mast in the
hole which is easy if there is enough room, pick the mast
(10 kgs/22 lbs) up and place it in the hole if it is not too
windy or use a gin pole with a block and tackle. The
latter is so easy that it is the way you will end up doing
it. All of these are easy solo. Ball park set up
assuming everything is clipped on and optimised for speed
would be a couple of minutes.
Comments /
Thoughts?There
are options and trade offs between performance, load
carrying and ease of use. None are critical, but
deciding how you are going to use the boat and
designing/building it accordingly will make using it more
enjoyable. This discussion is one of the enjoyable parts
of boat design for me, so I look forward to optimising it
for your use, either here or
privately.
On
Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 9:22 AM, gladius_12345@yahoo.com
[harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
wrote:
Like many others posting
here, I pretty much decided that multihull is the better way
for me. If anyone is interested in the whys-fors of what I
looked through / considered, then feel free to ask, else I
will not bore the list. So far I have ended up narrowing
it down my 'first round draft picks' to Bernd Kohler
(cat, eco 6 to start) and Rob (proa).
End game for me is to
consider the idea of live aboard/cruising as possible life
choice. But it will be a gradual gearing downing though.
I imagine there would even be some years marina bound for
internet use for work while I built up more of a cruising
kitty / cushion, so that is a thing. In any event I am
making beginning moves in that direction now. I joined up
with a local boat builders group, and even went sailing for
the first time last Saturday. I consider it a rousing
success in that I tacked and gybed, all while managing the
tiller and the sail for a few hours - and no one got thunked
in the head, nor did anyone end up cast into the drink.
Yay me.
Now building will be a new
to me, I am not exactly handy (yet), but am not completely
inept either if I set my mind to something. Still, the
idea of building a largish live aboard from the get go seems
a bit of a stretch. Instead, a smaller day sailor or
tender seems more in order as a way to build up the skills
(and minimize the costs of oopsies) needed to tackle
something more complex. Also, it will produce results in a
faster time that can then be used while something else is
being built. Keep in mind I need to learn a lot besides
the building itself - like sailing. So, this makes sense
to me at least, even if it adds a year to the overall build
time.
So desirable wants for the
first boat beyond normal harry stuff?
1) Can carry a few (2-5)
folks for day sailing / fishing plus say two coolers, two
anchors and chain, a small electric outboard / trolling
motor and its’ battery(es).
2) Trailerable <= 10’
width. <= 8’6” is ideal as nothing special is
needed, but in most of the states that matter to me 10’ is
just a fairly cheap permit added on (and of course dealing
with maneuvering that extra width)
3) Reasonably fastish setup
and pack away for re-trailering. One person can do it with
a bit of practice hopefully.
4) Design can be modified
to be built in (ideally) one side of a two car garage Say
21’ by 8’. Final assembly / painting can be
outside/elsewhere, but most of the work needs to be done in
the smaller area.
5) Single handable in a
case something goes wrong, or I feel like solo
sailing.
6) Will undoubtedly need
after sale support. Ok, so not really a ‘boat thing’
but important none the less.
7) Relatively cheap and easy to
build
This gives some questions
on Elementary and Ex40. I will start with the El since
that seems the better first boat fit for now, and leave the
ex40 questions for later posts if needed.
>> Elementary..
1) It seems like an older
design versus the ex40/Air/Cruiser series. Is there an
updated version, or would that not make much difference in
build time, performance and costs? Example, I think that
the elementary is telescoping versus the newer ‘horizontal
folding arm’ version of the Air/Ex? Or, the more
rounded looking versus the newer more squared off look -
presumably for easier building, etc.
2) I am interested in
hearing about (and using) the wing sail results as well as
new rudders. Would def consider these.
3) Is
there a ballpark sail away materials costs (or at least mat
list) and build time estimate? I will assume to add about
20% to that time given I am a newb. To make things easy
assume the schooner rig since that is probably more
known.
4) Dimensions. Approx
weight? Payload? Folded width on a trailer? Mast
height?
5) How do you set up /
lower the mast? Can one person do it? Overall ballpark
setup / take down time?
Comments /
Thoughts?
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Posted by: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk>
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