Subject: Re: : Re: [harryproa] Re:: polyisocyanurate
From: "StoneTool owly@ttc-cmc.net [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Date: 11/17/2018, 11:32 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 

     Imagine two skins half an inch apart with only air between....... Or an I-beam with the web cut out so there are only the top and bottom flanges.......The core is a critical element,  just as the trussing in a rafter or beam, but it's not the major load bearing element.  It is a working element under ALL loading conditions.  Imagine crawling up into your attic and sawing out all the truss elements of the rafters......... You don't have much left.    Imagine a steel tube aircraft fuselage... what do you have if you take the truss members out?     The core is homogeneous.  It doesn't look like a truss... but it is one.   
    At home, take two pieces of wood.... say .5 inch by 1.5 inch.   attach them so that they are separated by a foot and parallel project outward several feet, and join them with a vertical piece.... like a box.   Hang a weight from the lower outer corner..... You can't support much load.   Now do the same thing and screw a piece of 1/4 plywood to fill the space, and see how much more it will support.  Now slip a piece of blue foam into the middle and glue it and remove the plywood, and see what it will support.
    I suggest doing these things so you get a feel for what the foam does.  Make up a 2x4 using 1/4 by 1.5" wood on either side of a strip of 1.5" foam...  Lay it across a couple of saw horses to it span 8', and weight it in the middle until it fails.  Do the same with just vertical spacers at intervals.  Make a truss with diagonals in each bay between verticals or with just diagonals, and try it.........

    Get a feel for structures like this and how they work by building and destroying a few.  A foam and glass sandwich is exactly the same thing, it's just homogeneous, not discrete trusses.  In a roof, one spaces rafters at 24" spacing normally.  If you pushed them up tight so it was solid rafters, it would be grossly over strength.   You could build the same strength roof from a sandwich of plywood and foam, and eliminate the attic entirely.  The best way to understand this stuff is to play with it......

                                                                    H.W.



On 11/17/18 8:07 AM, '.' eruttan@yahoo.com [harryproa] wrote:
 



| The skins provide the bulk of the load path for a composite panel in bending in-plane tension and in-plane compression; as you point out.

Thanks for that Rick.

| I neglect the contribution of foam core when determining composite bending strength or in-plane properties of the panel. However when the panel is bent the core experiences shear. If the core is brittle with little shear strength (or limited shear strain capability) then the shear stress created in the core will fail the core. That means there are now two intact skins no longer attached to an homogeneous core. Basically the composite is delaminating.

Given the part has a design load, at what percentage of that load would a core expect to see enough strain to damage it?

Are you saying an ideal core would have higher shear strain, and we really don't care about shear strength, because if the core is doing strain work, you are far into yeild/overload and all bets are off? Thus assumes you do not want delamination in an overload, which, you might.

| I have sometimes used low density XPS for bulkheads and I add glass on the surfaces if I want the bulkhead to take shear loads - as is the case in closing a tubular section that will carry torsion. However it always worries me that the shear strain of the low density XPS is limited and the glass will shear the XPS bond in high shear conditions.

Do you expect these parts to see design loads that would cause these shear issues? Or are you explaining the dynamics in an overload condition?

| A low density XPS foam is far more brittle than PVC foam. The shear breaking strain is around 3% for 30kg/Cu.m Styrofoam compared with 8% for Divinycell H80. Given that E-glass has a tensile breaking strain around 6.5% you quickly see that the low density XPS is prone to core failure before skin failure when sandwiched between glass skins.

Again, if the glass is at 3% strain, what % of design loads is that? Given you can choose where a fail happens, would you rather the glass fail in an overload?

| That said I have recently found Bunnings have a pinknsh colored XPS foam core made in Germany that is less brittle than the blue XPS Styrofoam I have used in the past. I have not compared the properties but the Knauf board feels almost rubbery. It will rebound a little if compressed.

Do you have a data sheet for it?
Rob has a sample of the 700kps XPS, which, I believe, is not available in AU. I would be interested in your thoughts if you get a chance to look at it.

| This points out the need for compatibility of certain mechanical properties for cores and skins. In fact XPS may be a better match for a carbon skin that is good for about 1.5% strain, which is much lower than the breaking strain of glass around 7% despite the carbon having higher tensile strength.

| Divinycell and glass work nicely together. I am always amazed at how a glass/divinycell/epoxy composite works structurally. Such easily worked materials can be readily turned into a robust and durable structure.

Perhaps what I have missed is these structures are not 'math engineered'/(full FEA)so much as 'experience engineered'(formula assisted). So a material that handles unexpected loads in a very predictable and understood way is better?

What are the failure modes of glass/pvc foam? Is fail detection and repair easy? How are they detected/repaired?

In my limited experience shear fails are not a big deal.
Because shear fail only happens in an overload event, which you want to detect, and you can easily detect the extent of the failure (tap test) and repair it by injecting epoxy as this failure mode has the part mostly still intact, just cracks in the foam.


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Posted by: StoneTool <owly@ttc-cmc.net>
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