Sure, it is depending on what weather you have.

Perth, you would hope for a more moderate day with only 15 knots, to haveva more relaxing, smoother day.
Often reefed, first and then second which wax only third luff height, so like a storm jib.
Even dropped everything and kept about same speed, running with afternoon seabreeze, 25 knots.

Have you moved from Atlanta to Maine?

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 15/3/19, Mike Crawford mcrawf@nuomo.com [harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Flat bottom hulls?
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Received: Friday, 15 March, 2019, 3:55 AM


 












Eruttan,



MAST HEIGHT AND REEFING



  I agree with taller masts and more sail. 



  I get that there are good arguments for carrying less
sail, and
then perhaps supplementing with a kite.  And one of
those arguments
is that using a kite takes work and attention, so
you're present for
the process, with your hands on the controls, and are
less likely to
ignore changing conditions.



  That said, we get a lot of low-wind days in Maine
where there's
just a few knots of sea breeze, and there's no
substitute for air
draft and carrying windward sail area high up.  I'd
rather have the
option of moving instead of bobbing, and then have the
penalties of
having to pay attention and having a slightly less
efficient rig at
10-15 knots.  Like you mentioned, by the time
there's that much
wind, we can afford the cost of carrying that reef.





MAST SHAPE



  As for the masts, I personally am sold on round poles
with
external dyneema (very slippery, stronger than steel,
low-stretch,
near-impervious to UV light) halyards and hoops instead
of mast
track.  Though perhaps soft or semi-soft hoops -- I had
a Norseboat
17.5 that I loved, but had to keep repairing a section
of the mast
with an anti-chafe layer because the parrels would rub
on it while
on the mooring.



  Reasoning:



    - About as simple as it gets

    - Easier to remove the sail than with a
Wharram-type sleeve

    - You can repair and/or fashion the hoops
yourself, even out of
rope if needed

    - No sail track to purchase, install, bend, curse
at, or line up
if you have a two-part mast

    - The luff will automatically semi-rotate close
to where you'd
want proper leading edge on the leeward side of the
mast

    - The mast could be fixed, without bearings, and
you could just
have a rotating a rotating boom

    - Which would help with a VHF/AIS antenna and
wind sensors

    - And there's never a concern about the wings
sailing the boat
or capsizing it if a bearing freezes

    - Or getting into an oscillation pattern that
breaks something



  Our catamaran has a rotating wing mast that I really
do enjoy
adjusting so it has just the right AOA.  I've had a
lot of fun with
that. 



  But now I'm not interested in more of that fun. 
I'm looking for
the simplest boat to sail, not only because simplicity
reduces cost
and the chance of equipment failures, but also because
it helps if
someone else needs to control the boat.  And also lets
me be truly
lazy, if that's my goal for the day.



  A wing mast really isn't that much extra work,
and it sure does
add some extra power when rotated properly (and often
gets kind of
close on its own with just some minor settings on the
rotation
limiter for reaching and beating).  I couldn't
really argue against
one for those who have used one in the past and knows
what they
want.



  For me, though, the peace of mind of just having some
bare round
poles up in a big blow is worth it.



  (yes, a properly-oriented airfoil has noticeably less
drag, but
that said, if it stops rotating, then it's a lot
more drag -- I'll
err on a worse average but better worst-case).



        - Mike







        - Mike





'.' eruttan@yahoo.com
[harryproa] wrote
on 3/14/2019 8:17 AM:




 








| Flat bottoms are much easier to build and
repair. After
fairing, fitting and installing floor bulkheads
is the most
soul destroying boat building job.



Honestly, the composite tech is one of the most
attractive
part of design, to me. I'll say it every
time, avoiding
epoxy exposure is a BFD.



| 2 (or three) piece sleeved masts for
trailering are no
problem, and not much harder to build than one
piece (the
joining sleeve is a cut off piece of one section
slit and
glued into the adjacent one. The important part
of the build
is that everything is straight, which is as
easy/difficult
for short bits as long.

| My telescoping round mast was probably more
work than it
was worth (I don't go under bridges or have
to tow my boat,
which changes the pros and cons), but
telescoping wings have
some potential.



If Mike had to pull the trigger TODAY, what
would you
recommend, telescoping round, or sleeved? Or
maybe you could
hit on the pros and cons of each?

I guess it matters if it is trailered every
weekend a
summer, once a month, or once a year.

Probably, you will say telescoping wing mast.
;)

You got almost enough time to have it all
figured out before
he builds it, right?



How does this experimental system plan to handle
the dual
wing mast, in a marina, dancing during a storm,
scenario?
Which will be the thing everyone thinks of
immediately?



| A couple of weeks ago a client was here and we
played with
attaching sails to masts with hoops, which make
telescoping
rigs more viable. The results were promising, he
will use
them on his 18m/60' mono. More exciting is
the work Steinar
(he is visiting, the ideas are flowing thick and
fast) and I
have been doing on a telescoping wing mast (60%
of the
chord) for his boat. Ordered the sail yesterday
for a short
length of 1/4 scale model. If it works, it has
low sheet
loads, little or no twist (ie no vertical sheet
loads) and
no boom.

| Results and pics next week, maybe.



Sounds like a junk rig! Cheap sails for
everyone! Tell
Steinar we say hi! Looking forward to the sail
updates.



| Reefed sails rarely set as well as unreefed
(the sail luff
is cut for different mast bend characteristics )
and the
drag of the top mast is slow. As Mike says, a
bigger issue
on a stayed mast than an unstayed one.



Right, but, if the breeze is stiff enough to
reef, does it
matter you are sailing reefed or the top mast is
slow? You
are in a 'too fast' condition anyway?



Or are you saying don't reef and rely on the
other features
like mast give and dumping sail?



Or is this a 'most sailors are stayed mast
sailors' so they
have a host of reasonable reasons to avoid
sailing reefed,
so have an allergic reaction to sailing reefed,
while it is
no big deal at all in a HP?



| A 30' cat will weigh near enough the same
as a 40' proa
for the same accommodation. The 18m/60' of
cat hulls are
shorter than the 20m/70' of proa hulls, but
the proa hulls
are lower and narrower. Therefore the sail area
can be the
same, although the proa will have much more
righting moment.




Does not 'much more righting moment'
literally mean one can
run a larger sail? So why wouldn't the proa
run a bigger
sail?



Is there a problem with larger sails that makes
one want to
run smaller sails? Am I missing something
fundamental? Is it
sail cost?



Given you hold the righting moment to sail
area(?) ratio the
same (to give them relatively similar reserve
safety)
between a cat and a HP, how much bigger is the
sail on the
HP?



Why should the HP not have that large sail
size?



I imagine you can do the same thing with the tri
comparison.



I think with an understanding of that sail ratio
helps us
put the wetted area discussion in a different
context.



Follow up. Assuming a 30' bridge deck cat,
do you still hold
that a 40' HP can match its
accommodations/interior space?



| The proa accommodation will be more usable.
The proa will
be quicker to build (easier hull shapes, only 2
appendages,
no unnecessary curves, one simple mould usable
for both
hulls/decks), faster, safer and more comfortable
as it is
longer and both sails can be seen without having
to turn
around. It will also cost more in a marina, but
it will have
a tender big enough that you can anchor off,
motor in and
avoid paying altogether.



So, also cheaper to cruise.



| New Ex 40 drawings are finished, will be on
the web page
when Steinar stops doodling telescoping wings.
;-). First
one is being built in Barcelona.

|

| We have also designed the latest "best
ever" rudder mount
after 2 weeks of discussion, sketches and finger
drawings on
the beach. Simpler, lighter and easily mounted
on the inside
or the outside of the hull. First part of the
laminate for
an El test version is curing as I type. It works
for
bidirectional or one way rudder sections
(NACA0012).



What are the odds that 'best ever' is
'old hat' before its
mounted? ;)

Keep pushing the envelope.



| We spent today working on rudder build
methods. I drew
every one I had tried or heard of in the sand
(about 30m of
sketches) and we picked them apart. Came up with
something
simple and quick.

|

| Had a sail on Kitetik (15m Solitarry, weighs
about 500
kgs/1,100 lbs, plus 3 crew) yesterday. 25
sqm/260 sq' (20 sq
m projected, which is less than a Tornado cat)
leading edge
inflatable kite, dirty bottom, 10-15 knots of
breeze, 30C
air temp, a beautiful day. Top speed 8 knots,
pretty poor up
wind. For the first time, all the systems
worked, so we can
now move on to boat improvements and bigger
kites, starting
with a converted 28 sq m (28 sq m projected)
paraglider. .



Neat. Do you see cruisers using sails one day?
Is the
pointing a boat issue, or a sail issue?









Posted by: "."
<eruttan@yahoo.com>



















#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059 --
#yiv3886800059ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mkp #yiv3886800059hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mkp #yiv3886800059ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mkp .yiv3886800059ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mkp .yiv3886800059ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mkp .yiv3886800059ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3886800059ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3886800059ygrp-lc #yiv3886800059hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-sponsor
#yiv3886800059ygrp-lc .yiv3886800059ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059activity span
.yiv3886800059underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 dd.yiv3886800059last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3886800059 dd.yiv3886800059last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3886800059 dd.yiv3886800059last p
span.yiv3886800059yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv3886800059 div.yiv3886800059attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 div.yiv3886800059attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv3886800059 div.yiv3886800059file-title a, #yiv3886800059
div.yiv3886800059file-title a:active, #yiv3886800059
div.yiv3886800059file-title a:hover, #yiv3886800059
div.yiv3886800059file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 div.yiv3886800059photo-title a,
#yiv3886800059 div.yiv3886800059photo-title a:active,
#yiv3886800059 div.yiv3886800059photo-title a:hover,
#yiv3886800059 div.yiv3886800059photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 div#yiv3886800059ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv3886800059ygrp-msg p a span.yiv3886800059yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv3886800059 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv3886800059 .yiv3886800059replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv3886800059 input, #yiv3886800059 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv3886800059
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-mlmsg #yiv3886800059logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}


#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-msg
p#yiv3886800059attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-reco
#yiv3886800059reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-sponsor #yiv3886800059ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-sponsor #yiv3886800059ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-sponsor #yiv3886800059ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv3886800059 #yiv3886800059ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv3886800059