Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Flat bottom hulls?
From: "Rob Denney harryproa@gmail.com [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Date: 3/15/2019, 8:20 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 

 Mike,

Dyneema loops instead of tracks and cars is a no brainer for all the reasons given.   There were issues with booms and halyard/downhaul attachments, but these are now sorted.  

Sealed compartments require the boat to be dry to seal a hole, so you have the water sloshing around until you can get to a beach or slip.  Flat panels, you poke a rectangular piece of ply through the hole,  rotate it and let water pressure hold it in place.  Buoyancy tanks and bulkheads above the flooded waterline are easier to add to a flat hull than a V or curved.  Drying out on a deep V is good on sand, but just as likely to end in damage on rocks as a flat bottom.  Both need a couple of tyres or planks to sit on.  The shallower the hull, the easier these are to put in place.
Peter said it all about bilges for stowage. Tanks that can't be easily drained and cleaned are useless if you are sailing off the beaten track.  

I was not suggesting kites as light air options.  At present, they are still  in the realm of toys when you have had enough of water skiing.  The poor pointing is a mixture of conservatism, small sail area, steering, flying and comparative windage.  

eruttan,
Telescoping masts are more work to build, less windage when lowered.  2 piece masts are only useful for shipping or trailering.  Wing masts are the most efficient, but problematic at anchor/in a storm, tend to be delicate and are expensive to build. We have tried to avoid all these. The telescoping wing we are playing with has no adjustments while sailing except height and angle of incidence. When lowered, there is a 1/3 height D section mast left standing.  Not ideal, but less windage and lower than a full length mast.  Interestingly, it started out as a (modified) junk rig, but is now very different.  Cheap was definitely a major requirement.    If Mike wanted to build it today, then 2 piece round tube, dyneema loops, wishbone boom.   Otherwise, definitely a telescoping wing mast.  '-).    

The top mast slowing the boat when reefed is not a big deal, except when going upwind, when the added windage and hence lower pointing angle is a problem.  Most people don't like to reef because it is a hassle.  Flogging sails, boom going back and forth, sails potentiallygetting caught in the boom turning blocks, hard work winching the sail down, etc.  And that is when it goes smoothly!  Add in the sail jammed against the stays and not coming down, lines wrapping around the boom,  mainsheets hitting people on the head and all the other potential excitement and it is no wonder reefing is rare.  On a harry (or any unstayed rig), dump the sheet, the rig weathercocks and the boat drifts.  Trip the main halyard lock and the head falls to the next lock down.  Unhook the luff downhaul, hook it on to the reef point and pull it down.  Pull in the leech reef line.  Sheet on and go.  

The sail area comparison was in response to Owly's performance comments.  If he is happy with 30' cat performance, he could actually have a smaller rig on the 40' harry.  Or, the hp rig could be bigger for the same safety margin and performance would go up accordingly.  As would cost. 

You are correct about rudder developments.  Already seeing things that can be made simpler, particularly with the one way blades.

I am no keener on sitting in the sun or rain than you guys.  But I do enjoy sailing (ie seeing the sails), sun rise, sun set and the sky at night.  Any shade should be removable quickly and easily.

Doug,
New rudders kick up and can be lifted.  

Owly,
You should attend the Intelligent Infusion workshop.  You seem to have a very wrong idea of what it is all about.  
V hulls are hard work (and don't sail upwind), round hulls even harder.  By the time you have built and set up the frames for either, you could have infused your first half hull and decks. 
Flat panel foam hulls are easy if the shape is rectangular, hard if not.  
All are stickier, dustier, more time consuming and require much more effort and setting up than a harryproa.   2 x 30' flat bottom cat hulls and decks require you to build 8 panels vs 4 for 2 harry hulls.  You then have to align, glue, fillet, tape, bog and fair 16 (inside and out) x 9m/30' joins (some on your hands and knees, some above your head) vs gluing a single self aligning join on each harry hull/deck.
     
The cabin on the EX 40 is 1.5m/5' wide x 4.8m/16' long, and has direct access into the hull, which is another 750/30" wide.     An advantage of the rig and rudder in the lee hull is the windward hull does not need bulkheads to support them, so you have a bigger area, with no limitations.  There is more scope for layout options in a 40' harry than in a 30' cuddy cat.  And most of them are more comfortable and roomier, in all directions.   The lee hull, between the masts is 4.8m long, 1300 high and 700 wide.  
You can increase the width and height to whatever suits you.  Performance will drop,  but not as much as putting the same volume and weight on a 30' cat. 
 You could certainly have the galley/head/bunk/workshop arrangement you describe.   If you really enjoy cave living, you can reduce the cabin size to the cuddy size you will have on the 30' cat.  Performance will improve (or a smaller rig is possible), weight and cost will decrease.   
If you want to continue discussing accommodation, please let us know the internal dimensions of the cuddy and hulls you are considering.  

Have you ever tacked a (Aero) junk rigged cat in a seaway or with a reef in the sail?  It will be far more demonstrative (and disappointing) than your first harryproa shunt.  It will also seriously limit your cruising options as anywhere that might become a lee shore will be untenable unless you anchor a long way offshore.  

AFAIK, there are no areas in Queensland where you are not allowed to anchor outside a marina.  The restrictions apply to anchoring in coral, and are aimed at stopping idiots destroying it.  

Glad you are 'fudging' your length requirements.  What is your  "last remaining reason for adhering to it"?  Hopefully it will also get the sugar and heat treatment and you can start applying yourself to maximising your enjoyment rather than minimising your length.




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Posted by: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com>
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