Subject: Re: [harryproa] Dragging a prop
From: "Rick Willoughby rickwill@bigpond.net.au [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Date: 7/30/2019, 4:20 AM
To: "harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 

Velocity ratio is exactly what is states.  The increase in water velocity in the near field behind the prop relative to the far field velocity.  The far field velocity is boat speed.  The first of the attached images shows the condition for one of my pedal boat props operating in calm conditions at 6kts.  As you see this gives a very low velocity ratio of just under 1.05.  That means the water flow speed increase through the prop is just 0.3kts.  I have also attached the conditions for the 18m proa in calm conditions at 6.5kts.  It swings two, 3-bladed 540mm diameter props.  In this image you can detect the reduction in the diameter of the stream tube because the velocity ratio is somewhat higher at 1.2.  That means flow increase through the prop is just 1.3kts.  The velocity ratio does not change much with speed with a slender hulled boat. (In both images the prop is arranges as pulling but pushing is not a lot different. 


Advance ratio relates to tip speed and far field velocity so is quite different to the velocity ratio I am referring to.  As stated before, the velocity ratio for an efficient prop is close to 1 otherwise it is not an efficient prop.

With regard to dragging the prop backwards, you are not thinking about a proa, which sails in both directions - or would regenerate in both directions if it had merit.  An efficient prop operates at very low angle of attack.  So even if your blades have a very fine trailing edge they still perform quite well in reverse rotation. Most props do not have a particularly fine trailing edge so work quite well in either direction under load. As far as I can detect the 18m proa motors in either direction with similar efficiency.  It is desirable to have the drives at the aft end if motoring in a decent sea because they get buried deeper when at the forward end of the boat; as occurs with any boat.  So, as a turbine, the blades could be working in the normal forward direction or the reverse direction.  Once spinning the turbine will have very low velocity ratio because you normally charge at a much lower current rate than you draw under load.  Typically LiFePO4 cells have a maximum sustained discharge at 0.5C and recommended maximum charge of 0.2C; meaning 5 hours to charge from flat.    

I can assure you that you would not want to try to stop a 540mm diameter, 3-blade turbine from spinning when doing 20kts through water.  It would slow insignificantly when charging at allowable charge rate if the controller allowed the high voltage required.

With regard to electrical flashovers - Water is ever present on a small boat.  You can buy submersible motors but they are very expensive compared with more open types - see the Krautner prices.  Even if the motor or generator is kept dry, you can easily cause flashover by overspeeding when completely dry.  It is a matter of whether you get an electrical failure or a mechanical failure first.

Rick




 


 

On 30 Jul 2019, at 4:31 pm, '.' eruttan@yahoo.com [harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:

I think, what you are calling velocity ratio, I am more familiar calling advance ratio? Which is, IIRC, how big a bite if the fluid stream the prop takes. I continue assuming this is correct, but please correct if not.

While the advance ratio may be 1.2, that does not really address the prop wash velocity, which is the question of the moment. My thinking being, the prop wash velocity being some large multiple of the fluid speed the hull sees. Or are you saying the prop wash velocity will only be 20%? more than free stream? Do you know the prop wash velocity of the 18m proa?

Regarding your spectacular event; given a diesel at full throttle, with some gear ratio to spin the generator at max output (I assume 3600 rpm?), and spray in salt water? Amazing anything survived. Would not one fully seal any sort of generator/motor?

But I am not sure how that should compare to dragging a prop backwards through the water at 20kts. Its not like you would expect it to be super efficient and get to a huge speed, right?

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Posted by: Rick Willoughby <rickwill@bigpond.net.au>
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