| won't try to speak for Arto

Sure ya. Anyone reading feel free to jump in wherever. Rather talk ideas than worry about etiquette.

|   Most marinas make it easy to find a slip for 45' x 14' monohull.

Ya. I guess I knew that. I was thinking that Arto was talking about navigating into/out of marinas.

While we are on the topic... Is staying at marinas a big deal? Is the 'anchor out and tender in' problematic?
Seems better to me, but I know nothing.

|   Did you know that my birthday is June 7th?  You sweet person, you.

Yep, I am just a big flirt.

|   Telescoping beams would probably be lighter and easier to build.
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|   However, trying to fold or expand the boat single-handed, or even double-handed, could get very interesting.  If you don't move both hulls in parallel, you can easily jam up or break something.  I have this problem when launching our current catamaran from its expanding trailer
| -- we have a bear of a time getting each side to pop out evenly.

Right. But if you had lines in the tubes that could extend AND contract them, in parallel, with a winch, that's easy, right?

|   Plus there's always the question of how much bury/overlap you're going to have, how tight you can make the sliding joint, and how to keep stuff from growing or collecting inside the female beam.

Bury is a question. I figure tapers and internal strings makes the deployment/retraction easy.

Perhaps I should build a proto prototype for this E25?

|   Both parts of the scissor are sealed, every section is a full box section, and the massive 3" stainless pins that secure the ends when fully-expanded are both simple and sturdy (though perhaps a candidate for titanium).  Plus they screw/unscrew with a standard winch handle, of which one likely always has multiple on hand.

Ya, it is neat. Sealed is an important point I missed. I would think Stainless is more than what is needed. The winch handle is an awesome idea.

|   I think the inventor last mentioned a $2,500 fee to use the patented design.
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|   I'd happily pay that as part of a bigger project, but I also understand why it can't be part of the stock Ex40 design. Plus, Rob and Steinar's design is lighter.

Perhaps the cat has higher loads and needs the boxes?
I am not sure that is a real defendable patent.
But what do I know.

| > But probably scissors are better. Worth it to discuss?
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|   It's hard for me to imagine a system being simpler, more rigid, less prone to failure, and easier to handle by one's self.
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|   But my imagination is limited, so I look at this as a great system that someone will eventually improve upon.

The great thing is it is a proven design. So one can just use it and go. That seems worth a fee.

| > Imagine it hinging up and down.  Put 2 hinges per beam. One, say, at the edge of the cabin at 8' ish. Fold the ww cabin 'under' so the hull outside is now down.  Choose the appropriate point to put the second hinge, per beam, to fold the lee hull under  The outside edges of both hulls now can sit on the trailer.

|   As Bob points out, that could work, and is similar to the Farrier system.
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|   It also lets you use a non-expanding trailer, which is very helpful. I'm selling my collapsing boat and expanding/collapsing trailer because the system doesn't really work, so I end up paying for yard storage. 
| I love watching them launch and retrieve cat2fold with the standard triple-axle trailer.  So smooth.
|
|   However, with vertical hinges, I wouldn't want to try to load the folded boat onto the trailer if there were wind and chop at the boat ramp (say, if pulling the boat out as a storm approaches). 

The center of gravity would be low, and only light things up high. The boat would probably float in 2 or 3 inches, as so much hull would be submerged.

I don't know, but I guess it's stabler than a horizontal fold?

| The hull bottoms are designed for such loads and impacts, and one tends not to mind if they get scuffed.  The topsides are less sturdy, though, and the big scuffs and scratches that trailering would produce would end up making the boat look a bit shabby.

Good point. But I imagine some sort of padding/carpet might do? But you got a point.

|   I also wouldn't want to leave the boat in the water that way for anything more than a few minutes.  People who store Farriers and Corsairs in the water end up getting discolored amas, stained at best, and covered in fouling at worst.  Antifouling paint on the ama topsides doesn't really solve the problem in an elegant way.

I didn't think about long term storage folded in the water.

|   Plus, I'm not sure about the stability as the boat folds.

Me neither. But i guess most of the weight is in the hulls, and as the go lower, it should be stable. And the large floating surface should help.
But I don't know.

|   I personally don't see myself using a marina, but if I'm going to spend too much on a boat, I'd want a folding system that provides the option.

Ha! If I send too much on a boat, I wanna not have to spend on a marina too!

| > Are stubs better than holes?
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|   I don't know.  Is zinc better than copper for antifouling?
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|   This is one area where I don't have strong opinions.  I like stubs because then the masts get more air draft for a given mast length without having to bury in the hull, and it might be easier to come up with a sealed bearing design that keeps water out if there are stubs instead of holes.  But that said, I'd also be willing to bet that Rob and Steinar will have solid logic behind whatever they come up with for the stock design.

Good point! Lets see what they say.

| > Or the flip tiller with symmetric unidirectional foils?
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|   Unidirectional foils are a great option that is likely more efficient.  Bidirectional is my current preference, though, because it simplifies autopilot hookup, and also minimizes steps when singlehandedly short-tacking (short-shunting?) upwind in a tight inlet.
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|   I've got five miles of inlet to tack up before getting out to open water, so that seriously colors how I see the world. Friends who live half a mile from the open water have different priorities.  You could say to skip the tacking and motor out, but that's a half hour each way at 10 mph, and if I'm just daysailing for a few hour, that's enough motoring to make me not want to do it.
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|   I'm comfortable with trying to make up for the lack of efficiency with slightly deeper foils and crazy amounts of sail area.  It's not the same as being efficient in the first place, but it could end up being more efficient over the course of an hour if I'm single handing..

That's a great perspective. A simpler system is very attractive. I think the auto pilot unidirectional thing would just be software, but it is yet another thing to solve. And just getting an auto pilot working is a big deal, I think.

Honestly, it's a small point. Boat is light and large sails, so a bit of rudder ain't gonna be a big deal, right?

Perhaps I'll build both types, and we can race!

| > Current layout looks great for entertaining with people, but harder weather one could yank the seat back out of the toy box and feel a bit safer?
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|   Good point.

Also had an idea of taking the inward pointing door area and pointing it outward, to make two angled sides to lean against.

But I have no idea if thats a good idea or not.