Mike
My reasons for planning folding are not that much different from yours. A bit different twist though. For us in the Baltic Sea area trailering is non issue. Finnish road authorities won't allow wide trailering permits unless you have a heavy truck. That would leave us with accommodation my family of wife, two daughters and two cats find unacceptable. So the issue is finding nice spot for the night.
In marinas difference usually is nice sheltered place close to the marina services with monohull equivalent beam vs. not sheltered place at breakwater or even outside breakwater. Also in many places too much beam means no place at ali since they are often full during high season.
Also storage at home marina is nice and sheltered now with 13 foot beam (3,92 m). Catamarans are at the end of the longest pontoon in open and not sheltered place. Long distance to carry everything from the parking place and other unconvenient things involved including annual cost that would more than double.
Would love the proa ability to make fast crossings though. Ability to increase the day from 70 miles during sunlight hours to 100+ miles would open up many new options.
Arto
Lähetetty Samsung Galaxy -älypuhelimesta.
-------- Alkuperäinen viesti --------
Lähettäjä: "Mike Crawford mcrawf@nuomo.com [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Päivämäärä: 15.9.2019 0.25 (GMT+02:00)
Saaja: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Aihe: [harryproa] Re: 12' wide folding maxi-trailerable
Erutan,
I'll respond to most questions, but won't try to speak for Arto if
he has different thoughts.
For the non sailor, could you detail your concerns? Or is it just the obvious 45' x 23' boat in a crowd of monos?
Most marinas make it easy to find a slip for 45' x 14' monohull. So it's generally simple to find a place to put a 45' x 12' folded multi like a swing-wing Dragonfly trimaran or a scissors-folding Harry.
Bigger multihulls like bridgedeck cats are frequently relegated to the ends of each finger pier. That means higher fees for a bigger boat, plus with all the condomarans around, it's harder to find berths than it used to be. Though sometimes you can find a big shallow area close to shore that monos can't use.
In any case, a 12' folded beam opens up a lot of options.
I got some? Ex40 pic's in the file section, under Ex40. I was unaware of the generational differences between the renderings.
Cool! I have a saved copy as a .pdf file that I made when the first-gen was an active design, but didn't realize that you'd put photos on the forum.
Did you know that my birthday is June 7th? You sweet person, you.
I want to ask if telescopic tapered beams might be a reasonable option? Even if there are 3 beams per side, they seem simpler/lighter than scissors. Also can winch in and out?
Telescoping beams would probably be lighter and easier to build.
However, trying to fold or expand the boat single-handed, or even double-handed, could get very interesting. If you don't move both hulls in parallel, you can easily jam up or break something. I have this problem when launching our current catamaran from its expanding trailer -- we have a bear of a time getting each side to pop out evenly.
Plus there's always the question of how much bury/overlap you're going to have, how tight you can make the sliding joint, and how to keep stuff from growing or collecting inside the female beam.
My favorite folding system is used by cat2fold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8eL2a_xqkc
(full video)
https://youtu.be/n8eL2a_xqkc?t=316
(starting as they back it into the water)
https://youtu.be/n8eL2a_xqkc?t=339
(starting where they unfold)
https://youtu.be/n8eL2a_xqkc?t=456
(starting where they insert the locking pins to secure/tighten the beams)
Both parts of the scissor are sealed, every section is a full box section, and the massive 3" stainless pins that secure the ends when fully-expanded are both simple and sturdy (though perhaps a candidate for titanium). Plus they screw/unscrew with a standard winch handle, of which one likely always has multiple on hand.
I think the inventor last mentioned a $2,500 fee to use the patented design.
I'd happily pay that as part of a bigger project, but I also understand why it can't be part of the stock Ex40 design. Plus, Rob and Steinar's design is lighter.
But probably scissors are better. Worth it to discuss?
It's hard for me to imagine a system being simpler, more rigid, less prone to failure, and easier to handle by one's self.
But my imagination is limited, so I look at this as a great system that someone will eventually improve upon.
Imagine it hinging up and down. Put 2 hinges per beam. One, say, at the edge of the cabin at 8' ish. Fold the ww cabin 'under' so the hull outside is now down. Choose the appropriate point to put the second hinge, per beam, to fold the lee hull under The outside edges of both hulls now can sit on the trailer.
As Bob points out, that could work, and is similar to the Farrier system.
It also lets you use a non-expanding trailer, which is very helpful. I'm selling my collapsing boat and expanding/collapsing trailer because the system doesn't really work, so I end up paying for yard storage. I love watching them launch and retrieve cat2fold with the standard triple-axle trailer. So smooth.
However, with vertical hinges, I wouldn't want to try to load the folded boat onto the trailer if there were wind and chop at the boat ramp (say, if pulling the boat out as a storm approaches). The hull bottoms are designed for such loads and impacts, and one tends not to mind if they get scuffed. The topsides are less sturdy, though, and the big scuffs and scratches that trailering would produce would end up making the boat look a bit shabby.
I also wouldn't want to leave the boat in the water that way for anything more than a few minutes. People who store Farriers and Corsairs in the water end up getting discolored amas, stained at best, and covered in fouling at worst. Antifouling paint on the ama topsides doesn't really solve the problem in an elegant way.
Plus, I'm not sure about the stability as the boat folds.
I personally don't see myself using a marina, but if I'm going to spend too much on a boat, I'd want a folding system that provides the option.
Are stubs better than holes?
I don't know. Is zinc better than copper for antifouling?
This is one area where I don't have strong opinions. I like stubs because then the masts get more air draft for a given mast length without having to bury in the hull, and it might be easier to come up with a sealed bearing design that keeps water out if there are stubs instead of holes. But that said, I'd also be willing to bet that Rob and Steinar will have solid logic behind whatever they come up with for the stock design.
Or the flip tiller with symmetric unidirectional foils?
Unidirectional foils are a great option that is likely more efficient. Bidirectional is my current preference, though, because it simplifies autopilot hookup, and also minimizes steps when singlehandedly short-tacking (short-shunting?) upwind in a tight inlet.
I've got five miles of inlet to tack up before getting out to open water, so that seriously colors how I see the world. Friends who live half a mile from the open water have different priorities. You could say to skip the tacking and motor out, but that's a half hour each way at 10 mph, and if I'm just daysailing for a few hour, that's enough motoring to make me not want to do it.
I'm comfortable with trying to make up for the lack of efficiency with slightly deeper foils and crazy amounts of sail area. It's not the same as being efficient in the first place, but it could end up being more efficient over the course of an hour if I'm singlehanding.
Current layout looks great for entertaining with people, but harder weather one could yank the seat back out of the toy box and feel a bit safer?
Good point.
'.' eruttan@yahoo.com [harryproa] wrote
on 9/13/2019 6:51 PM:
"Arto Hakkarainen" wrote:
| Mike Interesting plan you have. Please let us know how it develops. Access to marinas and crowded ports is one issue I keep wondering about.
For the non sailor, could you detail your concerns? Or is it just the obvious 45' x 23' boat in a crowd of monos?
| BTW West Marine doesn't allow EU residents to access their website. Their response to the GDPR (the EU regulation regarding privacy issues) is blocking the entry of all EU residents.
Ha! Does this work? Can you see the West images?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Go-Anywhere+Low-Back+Seat+2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X
Did you talk/email them? I find a lot of tech disability in the marine crowd.
| The offer still stands! Though it works out that you didn't make it to Maine this summer because the catamaran has been on the hard all season getting a paint job.
Better excuse than mine. Lets go with that.
| I might have a 19' monohull in the water for the month of October, but sadly, that's all I'll be sailing this year.
I'll pour one out for ya.
| Perhaps next year.
I am kinda aiming at it. I get to miss the build party in Oct too!
| All,
|
| My goal for a maxi-trailerable would remain the same.
|
| The second-generation renderings of the Ex40, now offline, are slowly convincing me that it could be the perfect boat. Perhaps my goals for more size were just reflexive, and I really do want to make it as trailerable as possible.
| The first-generation renderings of the Ex40, also offline, are also slowly convincing me that a shorter folded boat for transportation is also a good idea. Given that I only plan to transport the boat twice per year, originally I didn't care about length. But after watching 46' roof trusses scrape trees on two corners in our road while building our house, I can see the wisdom of bows that fold up.
Apparently Steiner Is building furiously this summer, and will set all the harryproa.com things right when he can't build anymore.
I got some? Ex40 pic's in the file section, under Ex40. I was unaware of the generational differences between the renderings. Or is the fold up bows the 2nd gen?
With the bows folded/removed, it becomes a rather small package to tow, especially compared to, say, a 30' RV. Low and light, so it should be relatively easy to tow. Width extensions on basically any flat bed should work?
Have the removable bows actually been implemented on boats? Is there any reason for concern?
| So, the goal: the widest 40-48 footer, with the integrated
| tender/outboard, that can scissor-fold down to 12' wide for
| transportation.
I want to ask if telescopic tapered beams might be a reasonable option? Even if there are 3 beams per side, they seem simpler/lighter than scissors. Also can winch in and out?
But probably scissors are better. Worth it to discuss?
| Tillers with bidirectional foils highly preferred,
Or the flip tiller with symmetric unidirectional foils?
| along with designed sockets for lifting poles to raise the full masts and lower them onto stubs.
Is stubs better than holes?
| That might allow for slightly more space in the new Ex40, but I can't tell. It already looks like it would take up every bit of 12' when folded.
|
| Currently the only change or upgrade I'd make would be to add attachable curved aft "seatbacks" so you can lean back against something solid while facing forward, instead of craning your neck to the left or right for hours on end.
|
| Perhaps they would have knobs that drop into keyhole slots on the hull, or fasten in place with industrial velcro, or internal highfield levers that hook into padeyes on the hull, or maybe lashings that do the same thing.
|
| It would be easy to add just the seatback with legless padded folding deck chair (https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--go-anywhere-low-back-seat-2--10385656), but I'd rather build it out of glass for the following reasons:
|
| - It would look intentional, and work with the boat's beautiful
| lines.
|
| - It would feel more emotionally secure. My current open-deckcatamaran has nothing to stop the crew from being washed over the transom, and while this has never been a problem, it feels very dicey when seas go past 4', even with a harness and tether.
|
| Kind of like the the new drop-in cockpit for Bucket List (solid, secure, comfortable, and looks intentional) versus sitting on the tramps.
|
| - Mike
I could not find anything to cut out of your comments. Very insightful I think.
Seems easy to add a removable/movable seat back at 45° to the boat, to make longer hauls more comfortable. Perhaps with an integrated harness/seat belt?
Current layout looks great for entertaining with people, but harder weather one could yank the seat back out of the toy box and feel a bit safer?
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Posted by: Arto Hakkarainen <ahakkara@yahoo.com>
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