I think, the group no longer accepts posts.
It's working -- just very slowly. It took almost a full day for my last post to make it through the system.
But that tender between the beams tho...
I know! It's an extremely elegant design.
Maybe there's an easy solution that I don't see. If so, that would be awesome. If not, a permanent motor sled with an inflatable dinghy works for me.
Looking at the Ex40 renderings, a 5' wide hull fits fine under the ww hull, lee of the step, but easily inside the imaginary 10' line we discussed.
It might. In which case the motor could be tilted up out of the water. Though I'd be worried about the tender getting bashed against the main boat if chop blows in on a windy day, either colliding with the underside of the cockpit and steps, or with the windward hull.
My hope was to leave the bow attached to a main beam, while collapsed, with the beefy drive attachment that it uses to propel the main boat. That's definitely strong enough, but that's also the geometry that doesn't work out unless you disconnect and attach the tender outside the main boat. In which case it sits butt-down in the water and makes it hard to tilt the outboard far enough to keep it dry.
Why would the outboard not be dry under the ww hull in marina mode or trailer mode?
So, when in a marina, and you are collapsed, it might be hard to work on the tender?
Perhaps use the lines to move it out and hang it off the fore or aft beam?
My dream would be to have the outboard way out of the water, so that the even the foot is dry when vertical, strongly fastened to the main boat at or near deck level, either surrounded by deck/beam (as when the tender is hauled to deck level), or by a beam on one side and a skirt on the other (if the motor is mounted on a sled under the cockpit and extends outside the main beams when lifted).
You could indeed work on the motor when the tender is in the water, but I've lost parts and tools that way, gotten my hand crunched, and one time spent nearly a half hour trying to reconnect the cooling indicator line that spits water out. Every time I got close to the barbs and had part of the hose fastened, either some chop or a wake would come by and knock things out of position.
Having the motor easily reached from a "stable" surface -- the 40' proa is always going to be more stable than a tender -- would make any sort of maintenance much more safe and pleasant.
my guess is hook the lines over the beams to the tender, drop it, and glide it over to under the ww cabin, and tie it off. Thats what, 5 min, maybe?
On one hand, I agree. Probably a good estimate. On the other hand:
a) 5 minutes extra is more than I'd want to spend because that's not the only work to be done to put the boat to rest. Call me a sloth.
b) More importantly, at least to those with a lower sloth-quotient, I'd like to avoid doing that stuff in a blow and chop. I've had to haul and install dock floats and ramps, and install and remove 100 lb outboards while standing in dinghies, with wind and pitching deck surfaces, and I can't say I want to do either again. I've never lost a finger, or an outboard, but I've come close enough times to know that my best option is to find another way.
But that's just me and my risk optimization. People deal with these things all the time and survive intact.
the electric trailer winch pulls the boat up, while it floats on to the trailer, where it is secured, to the trailer. Then the trailer is driven up the ramp and the boat settles on the the trailer as it comes out the water. Is that not your experience?
That will work. It's how I see most people do it, so it would not be unusual.
And if you can keep the tender attached the whole time and drive away with a single trailer, the the whole thing is workable.
That said, I'm kind of old school in this regard, and don't trust winches.
I've had one winch break, one trailer winch mount break, and I've see bow/trailer eyes pulled out of friend's and neighbor's boats. It's nice if you can just float the boat into place first, secure the bow, and then reposition gently as the boat exists the water. Then there are no worries about anything getting jammed or broken.
Plus, if there's a long line of people waiting at the ramp, or there's no dock to which to tie off, this lets you get the boat with just two people -- one in the truck and one in the boat.
Being able to raise the motor completely out of the water, either by hauling up on the stern of the tender (between the beams), or by hauling up a sled, also makes beaching a bit safer as well. Get in really close, get some momentum, then lift-and-drift.
Again, these are fine points that most might not care about.
But the more points of past pain, or risk, that I can eliminate with good design, the better off I'll be.
Plus some day I'll be in my 80's and will still want to sail. Anything that helps with making that safe and fun is a bonus.
Thanks for engaging.
It's my pleasure. Thanks for continuing the conversation. You have shaken me out of complacency and forced a bit more clarity in unresolved areas that I'd been sweeping under the rug.
Between all these discussions, and Rob's and Steinar's continuously-improving designs, a strangely ideal boat is taking shape. I say strange because it's unexpected -- at one time I would have considered all the conflicting criteria to be irreconcilable, but it turns out I would have been wrong.
That said, I'm still using Corecell or Divinylcell instead of XPS. ;-)
But that tender between the beams tho...
Agreed. Sigh.
I've made my peace with saying goodbye to it. And if someone solves the un-solvable, that's good too.
If you build one you'll have to let me make a trip to the Great Lakes and see it in action.
- Mike
. wrote on 10/29/2019 12:06 AM:
Apparently, mike got the last word in, as, I think, the group no longer accepts posts. But I had composed this, and didn't want it to goto waste. | > Why can the integrated tender under the ww hull not do this? Please detail the concerns you have or see. I can't see them. | | I just don't see the geometry working out if the tender is going to remain attached to the main boat and the outboard lifted clear of the water, while the tender is under the on-water collapsed proa. | | If the tender's bow is fastened to the forward beam in "sled mode", the top of the tender will have to clear the sunken cockpit and stairwell on the windward hull when the stern is in the water. It is tuff to discuss without pictures. But I'll try. When the tender is under the ww cabin, I do not think it needs tipped, but rides and is fastened flat on the water under the hull. Perhaps up against the hull, depending on clearance. If there is enough clearance, or too much, raise the front tight to the ww hull bottom. I think. Its a guess. Looking at the Ex40 renderings, a 5' wide hull fits fine under the ww hull, lee of the step, but easily inside the imaginary 10' line we discussed. | Also, at that angle, I'm not sure how the outboard could be kept high and dry when not being used. I dont understand this. Why would the outboard not be dry under the ww hull in marina mode or trailer mode? | Depending upon the beam setup, that might mean detaching the tender completely and hooking it up to a new connection point when collapsing for a marina. That would be enough hassle to where I'd eventually find excuses not to do it. | | (This laziness is a personal limitation. I enjoy exerting large amounts of effort in the pursuit of specific goals. However, little things like a few extra tasks when putting the boat to sleep at the end of the day, inevitably when the wind has died and the mosquitoes and midges are feasting, become obstacles for me. I also wouldn't want to have to detach and reattach the tender's bow in a 25-knot breeze with 2' chop. Maybe that's fun once or twice, but after a few times, it would become a reason to not use the boat any time the weather's not perfect) It a task to do, but its done from the deck, in some short minutes. I do not have the details, but my guess is hook the lines over the beams to the tender, drop it, and glide it over to under the ww cabin, and tie it off. Thats what, 5 min, maybe? Then finish the collapse and use the tender to drive it where you like. Seems easy. | I'd also worry about being able to work on the motor when the tender is underneath the windward hull. Working on the motor when the tender is hauled up to deck level would be a dream compared to a normal outboard setup. But squeezing under the hull and doing maintenance when it's breezy out could be a challenge. So, when in a marina, and you are collapsed, it might be hard to work on the tender? Perhaps use the lines to move it out and hang it off the fore or aft beam? | > I dont know how a 12' boat with 2' hulls fits on a 8' trailer. | Ha! Yes, it would have to be a 12' trailer. | I've struggled so much with our current expanding/collapsing trailer that I just want a simple dual or triple axle 12' trailer that doesn't change size or shape. Part of it is emotional, part is practical. Sure. I think a few 12 beams bolted to a 8' trailer is probably cheaper/lighter/better than a full 12' trailer. No one cares if the deck is 12' and the wheels are 8'. The 12' sticker goes with the trailer. You probably want to raise the deck over the fenders anyway. | Any mechanism that has to support a boat's weight on land while | expanding/collapsing, and also be able to endure immersion in salt | water, is destined to fail, or at least jam. I am convinced. 12' deck on a 8' trailer that does not move is fine though, right? | If the boat can stably be collapsed on the water, it can probably be hauled even without its custom trailer. A standard flat bed, perhaps with a deck would work. Its not really custom. | Say, at a marina with a smaller travelift, or even on a big flatbed (probably have to lift with a crane, but still an option). Why not winch the boat onto the flat bed that was backed down the ramp, like, I think, most boats do it? | So being able to drive up onto the trailer in the water, secure the bow, and tow the boat over to a prep area is a fixed requirement for me. You have said this a few times, but, in my limited experience, the electric trailer winch pulls the boat up, while it floats on to the trailer, where it is secured, to the trailer. Then the trailer is driven up the ramp and the boat settles on the the trailer as it comes out the water. Is that not your experience? | > But you still need a motor, and a way to get on the boat when swimming or load/unload. | | True. If I waffle long enough, even more things will get solved in the meantime, possibly the variety of seemingly-conflicting tender requirements. | | But until that time, a solution could be a permanent narrow sled for the motor under the cabin/cockpit, and perhaps another removable drop-down sled/steps next to the leeward hull. The boarding steps could even fasten to the side of the a flip-up toybox that will live on top of the leeward hull when the boat is collapsed. All true. And this is just talking, which is cheap, and, I think, fun. I am learning lots, so thanks for engaging. But that tender between the beams tho...
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Posted by: Mike Crawford <mcrawf@nuomo.com>
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