Subject: Re: [harryproa] Schooner rig and VHF/AIS
From: "Rob Denney harryproa@gmail.com [harryproa]" <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Date: 4/22/2020, 12:34 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

 



On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:47 AM a8b7k57g@protonmail.com [harryproa] <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:
 


Most 40' cats have 60' masts, right? Again, that's what google says, I know nothing.
Maybe, but most of them weigh several tonnesand only have one mast.
Good point. the HP's have way less mass, but have a huge lever arm.
50-60% of the length, similar to most modern cats..

How did you decide on the mast height on the 24m?
The same as on all the boats.  Started with the required Bruce Number (sq root of sail area in sq' divided by cube root of weight in lbs) and worked from there.  The 24m needed a BN at least 1.3 when fully loaded (10 tonnes, plus 3 tonnes of boat = 29,120 lbs.  Cube root is 30.1).  So SA is 30.1 x 1.3 squared = 1531 sq ' = 142 sq m. 2 sails of 71 sq m each.   Rectangular sail, boom length 4m, aspect ratio of 4:1 = 17.75m luff.  

Excellent.

So, assuming I know nothing, is not all the Bruce number and these ratios based on traditional observations of typical boats?
It is a power to weight ratio.   The actual number chosen is a combination of weight, ease of build/use, cost, windage when reefed/anchored and experience.  No reason why individuals cannot have more or less if they want it.  The rigs and beams are engineered to resist capsize, so bigger/smaller rigs do not affect this.  
It seems way more legitimate, perhaps to just my mind, to use more direct measurements like righting moment and the moment of a dangerous 'gust'. Does something like that exist?
Sure.  See about 1/3rd of the way through http://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/NESTalk.html   A similar formula is on Wharram's and opther designer's pages.  They are based on  Drag of a flat plate at 90 degrees to the wind equals 0.5 x area x (wind speed squared) x the coefficient of drag, which is near enough 1.   This is assumed to push half way up the rig (variations include wind sheer, underwater shape and mast bend, especially for unstayed masts) vs the righting moment.   Make sure all your units are correct.  The answer is usually somewhere between 20 and 25 knots for a harryproa, without allowing for the mast bend.  
 

If the free labour and overheads are still on offer after the lockdown, the most expensive part is the carbon, then the foam.  Using a truss structure, the beams can be made from glass rods which are easier to infuse than carbon, cost very little and although they have to be a little bigger to compensate for the lower stiffness, should still have less windage..  

Getting away from foam requires much smaller hull panels and maybe some form of corrugated core, which I am experimenting with this week.    Otherwise, the hull construction will be solid glass with easily built f'glass I section stringers.   Fairly thick glass (max 10 layers of 400 gsm uni in various directions) is required for toughness and to stop the small cross section hulls bending excessively, so we should get away with only one stringer per panel.  Building the hulls in half moulds, the join will act as the stringer on the deck and bottom.    10 layers of infused 400 gsm weighs 6 kgs per sq m.  20mm H100 (recyclable PET or similar) foam with 1200 glass each side also weighs 6 kgs per sqm, has better panel stiffness, is less tough, requires extra laminate at the beams and is a lot more costly.

hey, i was talking up reducing the foam costs before it was trendy!
;-)

If you are looking at protruded rods anyway, have you looked at half rods,square tubes ,or flat plates to corrugate your panels?
Yes, but all are heavy


Why not infuse the stringer in the mold?
no reason, and still high on the list.  


Didn't our friend in the northern European country have F700 for very cheap per m^2? have you decided against it? Apparently they are not locked down.
yes, but not as cheap as corrugated glass, if it works.  Picking up the mould today, might get the first piece laid up tonight
PICS!
Will do.   Attached is a screen shot of what i am thinking of.  The blue and grey corrugations are glued together, probably during the cure of the grey sheet, then if required, the red flat sheets are laminated on each side.  Lots of variations with fibre direction and type, and on long skinny hulls whether corrugations in both directions are required.  Big problem for hulls is how to infuse it all in one shot.   However, as I am not paying for labour, it may be worth doing it in multiple shots to reduce costs.  

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Posted by: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com>
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